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Bronze medallion

 
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:37 pm GMT    Post subject: Bronze medallion Reply with quote

I should know this but I'm really tired right now...
Quote:

SFR/TSR Logo (Bronze Medallion): Normal (magic action); Unique (non-magic action, save, or nonmaneuver
avoidance)
During a magic action, generates magic results of any color. During any non-magic action, save roll, or
non-maneuver avoidance roll, counts as a Cantrip that can cast any color spell from the spell lists (basic
or racial).


The Cantrip usage is really clear. ANY spell, even if you don't have the race in your army.

what isn't so clear is whether this counts during a normal magic roll. Yes it can be any color, but is that a color only good for basic spells? racial spells that are in the army? or any racial spell in the game?
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chuckpint
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:29 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting. I hadn't noticed this before. If you read this strictly as written, and look at the description of magic items/artifacts/medallions, you end up with the following:

During a non-magic action, save or nonmaneuver avoidance roll, it can cast any spell of any color from any race. I agree that is quite clear. But that only applies to the rolls listed as "Unique".

During a magic action, the medallion returns "Normal" results. Since a medallion is "colorless", the note that it returns any color is necessary. Nothing more is said in the sentence about a magic action. If you look at the normal rules for magic items, the magic they generate can be used for any basic spells, and for racial spells that have a least one unit of that race in the army. Nothing about "any race". So I'd have to say that during a normal magic action, it acts exactly like a Sight Stone with 4 points of any color.

I see no reason to change this. Note that the DCM listed the TSR face as being able to cast any color any race all the time. But we clearly changed all three medallions from that time. My notes are not clear on this, but it seems this change was made deliberately.
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DEEPBLUEB2
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:03 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So I'd have to say that during a normal magic action, it acts exactly like a Sight Stone with 4 points of any color.


So then you can only cast the magic of the races carrying the Bronze medallion?

Ok I see one major problem here...
if you allow everyone to pick apart the rules due to minute wordings, rather than intent...
the original concepts will all have to be restructured grammatically.

As I see it...
the alteration of the Cantrip itself is at fault...as it originally was an instant, which became combined as an regular magic action during magic,
to eleminite combos like path/windwalk...
by doing this,
you need to reword the bronze medallion,
not take away from it.
It was never worded properly,
according to intent.
So to rewrite the intentions based on a conflict of rewording seems wrong.

I would say the Bronze medallion can cast any race magic...even during normal magic...
as well as any color basic spell.

So this needs to be worded corretly to follow the intent of the original concept...
or it just a matter of time until everything will be picked apart and altered to fit the wording...rather the intent.
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DEEPBLUEB2
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:15 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

So if the Bronze medallion can only cast basic spells during normal magic...
sure that's what the rules say...
but the intent is not clear...


let's take a look at the Gold medallion then....


Gold Medallion:

SFR/TSR Logo (Gold Medallion): Special (any non-maneuver)
During any non-maneuver roll, returns one non-dragonkin buried unit to the DUA or you may immediately
bring back up to four health-worth of units from your DUA to the army carrying this medallion.


Mutate:
For those that are killed return up
to that many health-worth of Swamp Stalker units from your DUA


now compare it to mutate....

as we see...you must return 4 health...
so that means you don't get a choice...
so if you had a monster and a rare in the DUA...
you would have to bring back the Monster...
you would not be allowed to bring back the rare instead.


with this exact wording..the intent is lost...
I don't think the gold medaallion was intened to create a forced issue.
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DEEPBLUEB2
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:18 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just want to know what the rules are... not pick them apart...
so if they need mini examples..
they should have them for clarity...
otherwise the open ended declarations of rule descriptions will be subjected to scrutiny, rather than game play...
and loop holes will become the focus.

I'm sure it is a difficult task... but intent should be the final deciding factor...
not discovered loop holes.

Ok that's all I can see in this.
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chuckpint
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:18 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim, please don't post to the same thread three times in a row. It makes it very difficult to reply to your posts....

First of all, you are missing the point. The intent of the new rules as regarding medallions was to make them a bit less powerful. The old rules had a bronze with just Cantrip, silver with a Cantrip or bring back a magic item, and gold with Cantrip, bring back a magic item, or unbury all your units. So why have a bronze or silver, if a gold could do everything those did and more.

Second you are reading the gold medallion rules wrong when you say you have to bring back the monster. It clearly says "may immediately bring back up to four health-worth of units". "May" always means it's the acting player's choice. "up to" alway means that you can bring back less. I don't why for mutate you interpret "up to" one way, and for the gold medallion a different way.

Third, we can always reword a rule if we think it's wrong or doesn't make the game work. In this case, I think the bronze medallion is fine. It does one thing on magic action rolls, and a different thing on other rolls. I have no problem with that.

Fourth, I'm not taking away anything from the medallion. It's been worded like this for quite some time. Cliff was just making sure he read it correctly. That is not to imply that the rules were wrong. For some of us "older" players, it gets a little confusing when we remember both the old rules and the new ones, and get them mixed up. I have to reread the rules myself sometimes to make sure I'm remembering the correct version of the rules.

Fifth, for deciding the rules during game play, the intent of the rules means nothing. During game play you have to go by the letter of the rules. On this forum we can discuss whether or not to change a rule or it's wording, and intent does mean something. But in this case, the rule reads and does what it was intended to do. Which is why I stated we don't need to change it.
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DEEPBLUEB2
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:42 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm just an old school Dragon Diceā„¢ Player,
conforming to the new rules.
It just seems that everytime I think I know the rules...
they change.
I would like to think I knew the rules...but apperently I don't.
So I'll try not to post in multiples...
I'm at work...and posting is on the fly...
so I don't have time sometimes to even read what I posted...rather than edit....
I just finish or add to my thoughts..
I just post a new.

Ok so does the Bronze medallion cast racial magic based on it's carriers..during normal magic on the TSR?
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chuckpint
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:54 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim Rayborn wrote:
Ok so does the Bronze medallion cast racial magic based on it's carriers..during normal magic on the TSR?


Yes, that's standard for all magic items. Their magic can be used for any basic spell of the right color, and any racial spell as long as there is at least one unit of that race in the army.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:58 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I thought that maybe since it's an SAI (the TSR)
that it may not be eligible to cast racial spells.
Since SAIs sometimes can not be modified....


thanks...I'll have to change my thinking about the Bronze medallion...
and I'm sure other player may be surprised as well.
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chuckpint
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:09 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

SAIs cannot be modified by spells. They can be modified by racial abilities and terrain modifiers. Attune is also an SAI, and it still follows the same rules. In this case, all that matters is that the magic points are generated by a magic item. It does not matter if the magic is from normal icons or a SAI.
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Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:37 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't mean to start all this. I just wanted to know which spells to cast.

I actually like the way it is is currently worded. I have fewer choices to pick from.
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