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Necromantic wave

 
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Drachenwurfel
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:54 am GMT    Post subject: Necromantic wave Reply with quote

When i cast Necromantic Wave, and rolled with one unit in the army the spell is casted on, a cantrip, will it be damage, instand magic or both?
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piMaster
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:37 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cantrip does not count as normal magic results during a melee attack, thus Necromantic Wave does not apply to it.

The Cantrip would be resolved as usual (instant spells are cast).
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Drachenwurfel
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:52 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

But doesn´t Cantrip only during non magic actions bring a special action?
During magic actions it brings "normal magic"


Last edited by Drachenwurfel on Sat Sep 13, 2008 3:54 pm GMT; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:04 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

During a magic action or magic negation roll, Cantrip generates normal magic results. In this context, Necromantic Wave has no meaning because melee results are ignored during a magic action.

The only time Necromantic Wave's effect is applied is during a melee attack or a melee avoidance roll (for example, Wall of Thorns). In those cases however, Cantrip does not generate normal magic results, and thus Necromantic Wave does not apply to it.
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Drachenwurfel
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:06 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

thats it, thank you
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:41 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Necromantic wave is cast apon an army....
and a magic unit has burning hands,
then can they double their melee results?

ie...if the mage rolled 3 magic, and had burning hands,
would this "converted magic to melee" be doubled to 6 melee?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:27 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim, remember the order of modifiers:

Subtract
Divide
Multiply
Convert
Add


Since Necromantic Wave converts magic to melee after the Multiply step, it cannot be doubled. Also, unit modifiers (like Burning Hands) happen first (the entire order above), then army modifiers. Since Burning Hands modifies a unit, if that unit has normal melee results, it is doubled before army modifiers. Let's take a simple example:

Army has 2 units, Lava Elf uncommon mage, and a Lava Elf uncommon heavy. Both units have Burning Hands cast on them. Necromantic Wave is cast on the army. An opponent has cast a Palsy and a Blizzard on the army. During a melee attack, the two units are rolled, and one gets 4 melee, the other 4 magic. First unit modifiers are applied, and the melee is doubled to 8. The army modifiers are applied. The melee has one subtracted down to 7 due to the Palsy. That melee is halved down to 3 (in Dragon Dice™ drop all fractions) due to the Blizzard. The magic is converted to melee by the Necromantic Wave , for a final melee result of 7.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:07 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuckpint wrote:
Also, unit modifiers (like Burning Hands) happen first (the entire order above),


Becareful with statements like that. I asked this once back when we were doing the SDA scenarios and got contradictary answers.

If this is true (that all unit modifiers happen first), then it means that racial abilities are applied during the Army Convert phase and not during the Unit Convert phase (because army subtraction effects happen because racial converts), however this is untrue because racial abilities work during an individual roll (assumption that army modifiers don't work during an individual roll)...

Let me answer my question by asking a question... if I'm making an individual roll and the army I'm part of just happens to control an 8th face, does my individual roll (save a save against damage) get the benifits of that 8th face?

I think that rather than saying all unit modifiers happen first, the right answer (and what was decided a while ago) is that they happen in turn. Unit subtract, army subtract, etc...
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:29 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cliff wrote:
if I'm making an individual roll and the army I'm part of just happens to control an 8th face, does my individual roll (save a save against damage) get the benefits of that 8th face?

well...I believe that you would get racial...not sure about 8th face benefits...
so if you has a Lava Elf at a Highlands...and you needed an individual save...
you would be able to use the maneuvers as saves...I'm not sure if they get doubled though.

Also if it is a save roll after the unit dies...then since it is in the DUA it loses the racial abilities.
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chuckpint
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:31 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are making a unit roll (almost always an avoidance roll), then army modifiers don't apply.

Racial abilities are a bit of a mixed bag. They do however for racial abilities that convert, talk about results. If you are making an unit roll, results apply during the unit convert phase, since there is no army convert phase. If you are making an army roll, then unit convert does not happen for racial abilities, it's applying to the army's results.

Note that your question about the 8th face is special. Read the section on the 8th face, and you will find that unit rolls are specifically excluded from getting 8th face modifiers. Like most game rules, a specific rule always overrides the general rule.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:34 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim Rayborn wrote:
lso if it is a save roll after the unit dies...then since it is in the DUA it loses the racial abilities.
Not true. But if it's racial ability is tied to a terrain, then it cannot be used since it's not at a terrain. For example, Undead certainly get their Resist Burial when in the DUA.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:36 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

well I just meant it can't use the racial ability since it is in the DUA,
this is a common mistake I was just pointing out.

As far as I know...nothing removes a racial ability from a unit...
also nothing removes original color from a terrain.



So grammatically...it loses the "use" of the racial ability. (tied to the terrain)
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:51 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuckpint wrote:

Racial abilities are a bit of a mixed bag. They do however for racial abilities that convert, talk about results. If you are making an unit roll, results apply during the unit convert phase, since there is no army convert phase. If you are making an army roll, then unit convert does not happen for racial abilities, it's applying to the army's results.


I thought that would be the answer. and it makes sense to me that it would be. my only concern is do the rules actually say that?
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:17 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

When i use your list on Frostwing Magic Negotiation, then i must first substract and then double magic, right?
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:49 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes.
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