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Baby sai

 
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:01 am GMT    Post subject: Baby sai Reply with quote

So an idea was mentioned to me a little while ago and it has me thinking...

A rare is a three point die and usually has a four sai face...

If that same sai were on a common once... Would you play it instead? Would it be overpowered to get the sai more frequently even if it was never as many points?

Similar to frosting and fly, but consider smite and cantrip and trample and counter and rend...
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:03 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like with the Frostwings, such powers will probably come with a drawback. For me, it largely depends on how big this drawback is. As a general rule though, I tend to prefer SAIs as they offer a lot of power and are slightly more consistent at what they do by not being modifiable by spells.

The kind of SAI on the die also needs some consideration, as some SAIs are more attractive on commons than others. For example, the 'double result SAIs' like Fly, Trample and Rend are very interesting because they have a broad range of consistent use. On the other hand, SAIs like Smite, Cantrip and Counter (to some extent) need quantity to be effective. A single Cantrip doesn't buy an awful lot of spells, and a single Smite is wasted against most armies. These SAIs need a big 'burst' of icons to be effective, and therefore would probably perform slightly less on commons.

While we're on this topic, I think a few of the more 'specialized' SAIs would be very interesting on commons. For example, Coil or Choke would be neat, as it gives commons the ability to combine SAIs and take on a much bigger target (Gulliver-esque mental pictures come to my mind). Something similar applies to Bullseye or Flame Arrow.


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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:41 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm surprised by your response, its the opposite of what I expected...

for example, take cantrip...

36 health armies, you can have 18 points of magic.

Today, you take 6 rare mages. your cantrip average is 4 +- 3.65 (meaning that getting zero cantrip is around 1 SD)

If you took 18 of these new commons your average would be 3+-1.58 (meanind that getting zero cantrip is around 2 SD)

so the results are lower, but more reliable.

this wouldn't be desireable?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:58 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

1 cantrip result is useless, but being able to bring 18 commons for a better SD would be nice. But even so, it does still depend on getting multiple cantrip rolls to be useful. I like the concept. If it was simply swapping out a magic symbol for a cantrip symbol, I think I would like it. What benefits do magic symbols have over cantrips? Melee and missile can be doubled or modified, but I don't know off-hand (may just be my naivete) that positively affect magic. There are, however, negatively affecting spells and effects that affect magic but not cantrips. So even for a normal magic roll, rolling a single cantrip can be nice.

EDIT: My mind began to wander as I started typing this, and I had a good monster idea. A Hydra-like creature (I don't care that we already have a hydra) with multiple ID icons! Very Happy Lava Elves need a monster, let's make Cerberus. 3 IDs Wink It won't be too powerful... In fact, we could also make it a group monster! Razz
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DialFforFunky
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:13 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the issue is not so much the average chance of getting Cantrips, but rather that there is a certain threshold you want to cross with these SAIs. Smite quite often needs to cross a health-threshold to be effective. Cantrips needs to cross a cost-threshold to cast certain spells. For example, I'd much rather have the 1/6 chance on a Cantrip that is certainly able to cast Path, than be stuck with casting Stoneskin on a higher average. Of course, these averages begin to balance out when you take more of them (18 x 18 vs. 6 x 3), but in most occasions I'd still be more comfortable with the 3 healths.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:18 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right. It's very situational which I would prefer. If I knew I was going to have a lot of the same die and in the same army, lots of small dice would be great with cantrips (or smite or w/e). But if I'm not going to have a large amount of small dice, then I'd rather have the big result once in a while.

I think I'm more likely to have fewer dice or dice more spread out than I would like to make use of the small 1-pointers. But this option would introduce some nice strategy in army-building and using the army.
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One That Was
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:43 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm....to be honest, I have mixed feelings about this. I like the idea of being able to min-max certain dice combinations...I mean who doesn't like looking over their dice and saying "Wow, this die has a 50% chance of saves, maneuvers, AND melee. That goes into the army." Seriously? Who doesn't do that? However, I also have a niggling feeling that there is something wrong with the idea. I just don't know what...

Actually, I think I do. There are ALOT of SAI's. And that means ALOT of possibilities for dice that can cause the whole concept to fall into the category of "Overdoing it."

If there were only CERTAIN SAI's that were considered for this, I don't think it would be too bad an idea. You could even pick some of the less useful SAI's...yeah, there is the argument that having lower health results on a Cantrip is useless...same for Smite, Coil, Bullseye, etc. But in a numbers game like DD, Quantity of rolls is just as valuable as Quality of rolls...you have a higher statistical chance of getting SOME result on MULTIPLE dice than you do of getting A result on a SINGLE die. And that isn't to be taken lightly.

So those seemingly less useful SAI's are an attractive choice for this idea, in my opinion.

Although I should say that both Counter and Cantrip are horrible examples of SAI's that are on the same scale and spectrum of Smite, Coil, etc. I mean honestly....a Magic result is a magic result is a magic result is a...well, you get the point. And Double Duty SAI's make bunnies happy.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:56 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem with putting SAIs on commons (or uncommons, for that matter) is that the really lower the value of rares. Rares do not have as many raw icons per health as commons and uncommons, but make up for it with SAIs (and, to a lesser extent, with the challenge of getting enough damage to fully kill them). If you could get the same SAIs on common/uncommon dice, there would really be no reason to bring rares. On the Frosties this was avoided to some extent by giving the commons/uncommons all the same SAI, so that the rares still had valuable SAIs that made them desirable. (And don't get me started on the fact that FR cavalry don't get the SAI-a pre-SFR decision.) I would not want to see SAIs on commons/uncommons ever again, period, for that reason.
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:51 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

One That Was wrote:
If there were only CERTAIN SAI's that were considered for this, I don't think it would be too bad an idea.
This is just me brainstorming, but I would never consider ALL sai's, only certain ones...

ddicerc wrote:
Rares do not have as many raw icons per health as commons and uncommons, but make up for it with SAIs


Steve, You are correct. commons have 7points, uncommons have 14 and rares usually have 19 (instead of 21) with 4 of those being an SAI. I agree that I would not have made frostwings the way they are.

However, to address your point... in my brainstorming world I would address this by replacing the '2' face on a common with the SAI. thus a common would only have 6 pts of affect with 1 being an SAI. making it (infact) weaker than a rare by one point (which is an SAI). Given that this addresses your complaint... 1)would you even care or use it and 2)would you still be against it?
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Drachenwürfel
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:42 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds verry Cool, but you have to be carefull by using the SAI´s, 18 commons with smite may be to hard.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:54 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Drachenwürfel wrote:
Sounds verry Cool, but you have to be carefull by using the SAI´s, 18 commons with smite may be to hard.


I don't see them being much harder than 6 rares with smite, actually Wink. In fact, with only 6 icons, I'd certainly consider the to be weaker.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:45 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

cliffwiggs wrote:
One That Was wrote:
If there were only CERTAIN SAI's that were considered for this, I don't think it would be too bad an idea.
This is just me brainstorming, but I would never consider ALL sai's, only certain ones...

ddicerc wrote:
Rares do not have as many raw icons per health as commons and uncommons, but make up for it with SAIs


Steve, You are correct. commons have 7points, uncommons have 14 and rares usually have 19 (instead of 21) with 4 of those being an SAI. I agree that I would not have made frostwings the way they are.

However, to address your point... in my brainstorming world I would address this by replacing the '2' face on a common with the SAI. thus a common would only have 6 pts of affect with 1 being an SAI. making it (infact) weaker than a rare by one point (which is an SAI). Given that this addresses your complaint... 1)would you even care or use it and 2)would you still be against it?


Now that's an interesting proposition. Depending on the SAIs I might try that out to see how it plays vs. rares.
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