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What is That! (October 2012 - Take 2)
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:00 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

UPDATED TO MAKE UP FOR A CLIFF-ISM

I made this table to try to help show how different they are.


EffectCloakCantrip
Individual SaveAny of the 5 normal results (ie you live *usually*)Instant Magic, but doesn't save the die (ie you die *usually*)
MeleeNormal Magic (ie nothing)Instant Magic
MissileNormal Magic (ie northing)Instant Magic
ManeuverNormal Magic (ie nothing)Nothing
SaveEquivalent of 4 stoneskinsInstant Magic
MagicMagicMagic



If you called Cloak a nerf-ed Cantrip, then you have to call Flame a nerf-ed Smite. These two SAI's are even further apart than those. or to say it another way, I wouldn't call a platypus a weird looking duck, but they both have bills and live in the water. (when they aren't secret agents)
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Last edited by cliffwiggs on Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:36 am GMT; edited 2 times in total
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DialFforFunky
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:01 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

cliffwiggs wrote:
[...] add four save results to the army containing this unit until the beginning of your next turn. [...]


Shocked


edit:
cliffwiggs wrote:
[...]Equivalent of 2 stoneskins[...]


I suppose this should be 4 instead of 2? And the saves aren't magical, are they?


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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:03 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

The intention was to save very well and he is a 'reactionary' monster. ie. the counter, volley and now cloak.

It was considered to have Cloak do direct damage, but this save type effect was a better choice.
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:07 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

DialFforFunky wrote:

I suppose this should be 4 instead of 2? And the saves aren't magical, are they?
The spell stoneskin gives two saves. so 2*2=4.

and your other comment, good catch. The intention was that these would be magical saves. I'll have to think about to tweak that wording, or generalize the wording of things like scorching touch and smite...
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:20 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

cliffwiggs wrote:
The spell stoneskin gives two saves. so 2*2=4.

Huh? Am I using outdated rules?
rulebook wrote:
Stoneskin Casting Cost: 2 Spell List: Basic
Target any army. Until the beginning of your next turn, add one save result to the target army. Multiple castings increase the effect or target another army.



cliffwiggs wrote:
and your other comment, good catch. The intention was that these would be magical saves. I'll have to think about to tweak that wording, or generalize the wording of things like scorching touch and smite...


Magical saves would be a nice little boost for this SAI. Are you thinking of having it save against Smite as well? That would be quite impressive.


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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:36 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

DialFforFunky wrote:

Huh? Am I using outdated rules?
Nope, sorry. its me. I'll fix it.


cliffwiggs wrote:

Magical saves would be a nice little boost for this SAI. Are you thinking of having it save against Smite as well? That would be quite impressive.
It would not work against smite. I think we need to just acknowledge that its not just magical saves, but a save effect which can come from magic or sai. we've been going in that direction for a while w/o actually saying it. An effect is an effect and its source shouldn't matter.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:42 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like it. It's like a Fly/Trample that also produces magic and missile. It basically generates whatever you want whenever you roll it.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:43 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do wanna point this out...

I know it provides 4 saves until the beginning of next turn....

With that said, it wont protect against counters or burning touch because they specifically say only magical saves can protect, as this is not magic but an effect. However, if this could be fixed before the release of this guy, that would be appreciated! That way, if I get attacked by scalders and this comes up ill be less hesitant to attack back.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:51 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

You should always attack back at Scalders. Their scorching touch only works if you attack them first. It does not work on a counter-attack.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:52 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skawilly wrote:
I do wanna point this out...

I know it provides 4 saves until the beginning of next turn....

With that said, it wont protect against counters or burning touch because they specifically say only magical saves can protect, as this is not magic but an effect. However, if this could be fixed before the release of this guy, that would be appreciated! That way, if I get attacked by scalders and this comes up ill be less hesitant to attack back.


Cliff mentioned that it should work against those abilities, it's just a matter of properly wording it.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:54 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuckpint wrote:
You should always attack back at Scalders. Their scorching touch only works if you attack them first. It does not work on a counter-attack.


I think this could use a rewording, then. I don't find it clearly obvious that this is the case.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:57 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazy. Mr. Pint I never knew that. So if I attack them and they roll for saves they get this ability. But if they attack me on their turn and I roll for a counter attack, on their saves they dont get this ability. Burning touch I mean. Thats very interesting.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:01 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Scorching Touch: Scalders, when rolling for saves during the attack phase of a melee action, generate one point of damage for each non-ID save result back against the attacking army. Only magical saves protect against this damage.

Note how the first sentence is worded. "attack phase" is the first attack. The second attack is "counter-attack phase".
glossary wrote:
Attack Phase: The first part of a melee action conducted by the marching army to inflict damage on an opposing army. See melee attack.

Counter-Attack Phase: The subsequent response by a defending army to a melee attack by the marching army during a melee action. See melee attack.

Melee Attack: The acting army rolling for melee results during the attack or counter-attack phase of a melee action or during a melee avoidance roll. See action.

Melee Action: This action consists of the acting army rolling for melee results. A melee action has two phases: an attack phase, conducted by the marching army, and a counter-attack phase: conducted by the opposing army chosen as the recipient of the melee attack by the marching army. See attack phase, counter-attack phase and melee attack.

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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:18 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

stormywaters wrote:
I like it. It's like a Fly/Trample that also produces magic and missile. It basically generates whatever you want whenever you roll it.
are you looking at the same SAI we are looking at?
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:22 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

stormywaters wrote:
chuckpint wrote:
You should always attack back at Scalders. Their scorching touch only works if you attack them first. It does not work on a counter-attack.


I think this could use a rewording, then. I don't find it clearly obvious that this is the case.


wanna take a stab at it? can this one SAI be reworded more easily than we can extend the concept of 'magical saves' from the rest of the rules?

I know, I know - we can put it in the Glossary! Magical Save - This is a persistent save effect that comes as a result of casting a magic spell or the SAI Cloak. Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:11 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cliff, you're a genius! A new glossary addition it will be! Mr. Green Mr. Green

Can we say something along these lines:
During a save roll, add four magical save results to the army containing this unit until the beginning of your next turn.

That seems simple enough.... So basically it adds not just saves, but magical saves!
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 2:11 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

We are just making up a new game term, but it works for me.

for 3.0 I'd prefer to more to a more generic term like effect,

guess its a good thing I haven't finished the rules insert yet, eh? see procrastination pays off!
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 2:57 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

cliffwiggs wrote:
stormywaters wrote:
I like it. It's like a Fly/Trample that also produces magic and missile. It basically generates whatever you want whenever you roll it.
are you looking at the same SAI we are looking at?


D'oh! Misread it.

Anyway, still pretty cool. Protects against most individual targeting effects, generates magic, and provides saves. Not bad.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:11 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

cliffwiggs wrote:
wanna take a stab at it? can this one SAI be reworded more easily than we can extend the concept of 'magical saves' from the rest of the rules?


You quoted me saying one thing, then talked about something completely different.

If you're referring to the part you quoted, regarding Scalders, it'd be either making a counterattack not be a "melee attack" - not optimal - or simply adding a few words to the racial ability to clarify:

"During a melee attack, but not during a counterattack, Scalders..."

I know that technically Chuck is correct. Unfortunately, not everyone is going to look up the SAI, then look up the precise definition of "attack phase". Adding the clause "not during a counterattack" clarifies by adding a meager few words.


Now as to making Cloak work against Counter (et al), are you making all SAI saves work like magical saves in this regard? If so, make those effects (Counter) say "Only magical saves or saves generated by SAIs".

Alternatively, create a glossary entry for "Special Save", "Magical Save", "Mystic Save", or "Ultra-Mega Uber-Save" (my favorite) that says basically the following:

Magical Save: Any save generated by a spell or SAI.

So when Counter says "Only (Magical/Mystic/Ultra-Mega Uber-) saves protect against this damage", it refers to a specific game mechanic.

It is for this reason I would actually not use "Magical Save", simply because the word "Magical" already connotes the casting of magic, so you're likely to say "Oh, just a save that was created with spells". Using something like "Mystic" or "Ultra-Mega Uber-" clearly means "You may want to check the glossary if you're not familiar with this term."

It is also for this reason that I would like to see keywords that are found in the Glossary to be capitalized, bolded, and/or italicized. They should clearly stand out as "Hey! This word has a very specific definition!"
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:23 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

stormywaters wrote:

You quoted me saying one thing, then talked about something completely different.
Razz

Quote:

It is also for this reason that I would like to see keywords that are found in the Glossary to be capitalized, bolded, and/or italicized. They should clearly stand out as "Hey! This word has a very specific definition!"
Excellent advice for those who are reformatting the rules for starters...
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