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New molds and the unearthly
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:33 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shoe, we didn't get to talk about this at Gencon, but have your opinions changed much?
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:16 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

cliffwiggs wrote:
Shoe, we didn't get to talk about this at Gencon, but have your opinions changed much?


The short answer is, "No".

The long answer:

I basically see two aspects that make people want to somehow change the rarity for the Magi and Inferno: Collectiblity and Gameplay. I will offer my 2 cents on each.

Collectiblility: Dragon Dice™ is a collectible game. I can understand people wanting to have a "full set" of dice. But to quote Chuck, the answer to that is to "Buy more dice". Did TSR screw up by making such a ridiculous rarity for some dice? Absolutely. I would never advocate that kind of seeding... maybe those kinds of odds would be fine for alternate inks randomly inserted in packs or something, but not for basic dice used to play the game. BUT, they did what they did. I don't think it is up to SFR to fix those mistakes. Those mistakes have had a big hand in defining the history of Dragon Dice™. People have stories regarding the obtaining of those handful of dice. And people have spent alot of money to get the ultra-rares they have. I have 6 Magi myself, and never pulled one from a pack. That means I either bought them or traded for them (after unsuccessfully opening cases of Frostwings), and they were never cheap, (though I didnt always have to pay "full Chuck points" to get them). Just like any collectible game, there are the items you really have to pay for if you want them. There are hundreds and hundreds of different Dragon Dice™. Anyone who is actually trying to collect them all has a lot of work to do even if there weren't ridiculous rarities involved. You just have to understand what you are getting into.

Gameplay: It is unfortunate that two of the dice are the rare magic dice. But neither are must owns as armies can be built using the 1 and 2 point magic dice. If Cantrip is the problem (or really, not having access to cantrip for Frostwings and Scalders), then the rules can be tweaked. Make the cantrip on the Bronze medallion allow racial spells during a magic action provided there is at least one unit of that race in the army. If that makes the bronze medallion too strong, reduce its effectiveness by removing its ability to case any racial spell when cantrip comes up during non-magic action or save rolls. Maybe what I am suggesting is not the best solution, but there are ways the rules can be tweaked to compensate for keeping these dice hard to get. That is , by far, a more preferred fix to this issue, IMHO. If we are now working on a DD Rules V 3.0, take the rarity of those two dice into consideration and fix it that way. I personally dont think this issue is so important that it needs to be addressed, but if others do, tweak the rules of the game to fix it.

In my earlier post, one point I made was never really addressed. What would we give up if SFR made new molds? This discussion makes me think that SFR has the money to buy two molds. If they do, I have other requests I'd like to see entertained before fixing this rarity issue:

1) Fifth Monsters: If the molds for the rest of the fifth monsters are not a done deal yet, then its a no-brainer that they get done before something like fixing Magi/Inferno rarity.

2) Eladrim Champions: We have three main types, Lords/Masters, Slayers/Hunters, and Crusaders/Zealots. You could loosly argue that they each focus on 1 of the 5 aspects of Dragon Dice™... or if not focus, at least they are "better" at one than the others. DLs have Cantrip... better at magic. DSs have Counter... better at getting actual Melee results (not just getting something useful during melee). DCs have Bash... they save better than the others. So that is Magic, Melee, and Save. How about using two new molds to make Missile and Maneuver oriented Eladrim Champions? That would be a MUCH better use of money for two molds to me.

3) Unearthly: This was the initial focus of this thread. I am all for Unearthly, no matter what they end up being. If TSR only had loose notes, so be it. Take them and run with them. And if it just isn't working, then forget the TSR notes and make up something new and call that Unearthly. Sure, there is alot more work involved with creating something from scratch than simply "fixing" the rarity issue. But from a customer satisfaction standpoint, I don't see how new dice introduced into the fold doesn't outweigh "easier to get Magis and Inernos"... by ALOT!

4)Royalty Dice: For two molds, I'd much rather see two new "King's Dice... that cover the other races. There are 8 races withough King's Die faces. Two new dice could cover those... four to a die. Even counting the ID, you would still have one free face on each die... maybe address that with an SFR logo similar to Eladrim Champions? Even under existing rules, I'd like to see these dice made over new Magi and Infernos. And if in the new rules, the Royalty die was better in gameplay, then I'd rather see these dice made that much more!

I just don't think the argument for changing the Magi/Inferno rarities has much merit once you actually dig down into the issue. On the surface, sure, sounds nice. But really, the bang is just not worth the buck... espeically when you factor in the risk of upsetting long-time collectors.

Its a collectible game. Translation: some dice are harder to get than others.
SFR has shown that they are not going to follow any similar foolishness in dice rarity. Thank the maker!
Frostwings and Scalders are completely playable without Magis or Infernos.
For the few that are completely bent on needing a Magi or Inferno, welcome to my world. Bring your checkbook! (BTW, win a tournament at GenCon and pick the Promo Magi as your prize!)
Other great dice can be produced for the cost it would take to make new Magis and Infernos.
Collection values are not unduly disturbed!
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:42 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

You mention the collectibility. there are a lot of people who collect both TSR and SFR and will pay more for one over the other. Thus if this new magi were changed to be distinct either by face rotation or by ink color. there would be a distinctness for collectibility. However I'm taking it that you have already taken that into account.

shoesan wrote:
Make the cantrip on the Bronze medallion allow racial spells during a magic action provided there is at least one unit of that race in the army.
I'm a bit feverish today, but i'm 90% certain it already does that.

Quote:
What would we give up if SFR made new molds?

At the risk of getting my hand slapped, let me say something here.

We always try to keep price increases to a minimum. You'll notice that all the eldarim champions are the same price, even though they were made years and years apart. The costs to produce have gone up, but we kept to price the same.

similarly, when we have run out of frostwings or scalders we have reprinted them at the same price, even though our costs have gone up. Sometimes we've done this and no one even noticed.

you've noticed that with these newer kickers coming out we had to increase the costs. We just had no choice in the matter.

When we reprint the frostwing/scalders again (which is the only reason this is even being discussed). I'm 90% certain they will have to have a price increase to meet the current markets rates. The only question is how much of an increase and is that increase meant to fund something internal to those races or external to them. I know that the next printing will have a single rulesheet in it (like the new goblins will have), but do we increase it by $1 or $2? That hasn't been decided yet. ..
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:30 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, I would rather see any money spent making new molds be for the remaining 5th monsters, then new races and PROMOs (i.e. different Royal dice - not just additional King die). New molds for Frostwings and Scalders are in the nice to have category IMHO.

Just my 0.02 of your local currency.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:14 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

cliffwiggs wrote:

You mention the collectibility. there are a lot of people who collect both TSR and SFR and will pay more for one over the other. Thus if this new magi were changed to be distinct either by face rotation or by ink color. there would be a distinctness for collectibility. However I'm taking it that you have already taken that into account.


Correct. A different inking or face rotation is a nice idea, but too many people don't care about that sort of thing. That means it will definitely have a major negative impact on value of the current ones. I think the only way it wouldn't would be if everyone desired the variations enough to still pursue them at their current values. But obviously that won't be the case or we wouldn't really be talking about reprinting them in the first place.

cliffwiggs wrote:

shoesan wrote:
Make the cantrip on the Bronze medallion allow racial spells during a magic action provided there is at least one unit of that race in the army.
I'm a bit feverish today, but i'm 90% certain it already does that.

I don't think so... but I have been wrong about rules before.

During a magic action, generates magic results of any color. During any non-magic action, save roll, or non-maneuver avoidance roll, counts as a Cantrip that can cast any color spell from the spell lists (basic or racial).

I interpret that to mean that during a magic action, the points can only be used on basic spells of any color. And I also interpret the special results during melee, missile, and save to mean you can cast any racial spell, even if you do not have a member of that race in your army.

My change suggestion is different... and I put it there to help compensate for people not having access to a Frostwing or Scalder cantrip, as I am assuming that is what is driving the "need" for the Magi and Inferno in game play. All other things those dice bring to the table can be covered with 1 point or 2 point magic dice.

Note, I am not saying this is a perfect solution. But it is a viable solution. I do not believe the Magi and Inferno are needed in gameplay so severely as to merit a new mold design. If someone really wants one, its just that... they want one. They don't need one. And I feel wanting one should boil down to how bad does someone want one. And I am not saying that to be a jerk. The reality is that people who have them either got lucky pulling one, or gave up a lot to get them. That can't really be changed. I just can't agree with devaluing other people's collections. I would feel this way whether I had 0 or 100 of these dice.

cliffwiggs wrote:

Quote:
What would we give up if SFR made new molds?

At the risk of getting my hand slapped, let me say something here.

We always try to keep price increases to a minimum. You'll notice that all the eldarim champions are the same price, even though they were made years and years apart. The costs to produce have gone up, but we kept to price the same.

similarly, when we have run out of frostwings or scalders we have reprinted them at the same price, even though our costs have gone up. Sometimes we've done this and no one even noticed.

you've noticed that with these newer kickers coming out we had to increase the costs. We just had no choice in the matter.

When we reprint the frostwing/scalders again (which is the only reason this is even being discussed). I'm 90% certain they will have to have a price increase to meet the current markets rates. The only question is how much of an increase and is that increase meant to fund something internal to those races or external to them. I know that the next printing will have a single rulesheet in it (like the new goblins will have), but do we increase it by $1 or $2? That hasn't been decided yet. ..


I am not sure this addresses my point. Are you saying that all money for the two molds would come to SFR via a price increase on Frostwings and Scalders? It sounds like there is a price coming the next time they are printed anyways. Does this mean the price increase would be greater if the rarity molds were made? Is the $1 without new molds and the $2 is if there were new molds?

In any event, I can understand if prices have to increase over time. That is part of life. But I would be of the mindset that if the increase was bigger, in order to buy two molds, I still believe there are other molds that should be made with that increase before a rarity-fixing mold was made. And really, that is my point. If SFR gains more capital via more sales, higher prices, more stock bought... whatever the method... I think the money is better spent on new dice. The same people who want a fixed rarity might also really like a new race... or completed fifth monsters... or new Eladrim Chamions... or new Royalty dice... etc. The people who dont want the rarity changed definitely want new dice. Either way, "new dice" is a good thing and will make just about everyone happy.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:22 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

shoesan wrote:
cliffwiggs wrote:

shoesan wrote:
Make the cantrip on the Bronze medallion allow racial spells during a magic action provided there is at least one unit of that race in the army.
I'm a bit feverish today, but i'm 90% certain it already does that.

I don't think so... but I have been wrong about rules before.

During a magic action, generates magic results of any color. During any non-magic action, save roll, or non-maneuver avoidance roll, counts as a Cantrip that can cast any color spell from the spell lists (basic or racial).

I interpret that to mean that during a magic action, the points can only be used on basic spells of any color. And I also interpret the special results during melee, missile, and save to mean you can cast any racial spell, even if you do not have a member of that race in your army.

My change suggestion is different... and I put it there to help compensate for people not having access to a Frostwing or Scalder cantrip, as I am assuming that is what is driving the "need" for the Magi and Inferno in game play. All other things those dice bring to the table can be covered with 1 point or 2 point magic dice.

Note, I am not saying this is a perfect solution. But it is a viable solution. I do not believe the Magi and Inferno are needed in gameplay so severely as to merit a new mold design. If someone really wants one, its just that... they want one. They don't need one. And I feel wanting one should boil down to how bad does someone want one. And I am not saying that to be a jerk. The reality is that people who have them either got lucky pulling one, or gave up a lot to get them. That can't really be changed. I just can't agree with devaluing other people's collections. I would feel this way whether I had 0 or 100 of these dice.
All magic items (including the Bronze Medallion) can generate racial spells if at least one unit from that race is in the army.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:27 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuckpint wrote:

All magic items (including the Bronze Medallion) can generate racial spells if at least one unit from that race is in the army.


OK... then does a member of that race need to be present when using cantrip outside of a magic action to cast a racial spell?
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:51 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nope.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:23 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well then I guess a rule change is not in order... it already works in the manner I was intending to help with not having a Magi or Inferno.

Can someone tell me why a Magi or Inferno is then "needed" in gameplay? Seems to me you can pretty much work around not having one if you really wanted to.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:12 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the same reason you would want any other rare Mage, Cantrip. Let's face it, while the Bronze Medallion actually gives you a better chance of Cantrip, all rare mages generate more magic on a magic roll (on the average).
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:13 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, that is true. But if you want magic results, 1 and 2 pointers will do the trick (2 pointers for Frostwings). If you want Cantrip, you have the bronze medallion. I didn't say it was the perfect solution, but its still a viable one. Enough so that I just don't agree anything needs to be fixed, especially given the consequences of dice values in a collectible dice game.

I think I have covered all my concerns and given all of my input. I certainly dont want to dominate this conversation. The bottom line for me is that I would much rather see new dice made if new molds were bought. I don't think there is an argument strong enough in defense of new Frostwing/Scalder molds to make me change my mind on that. I don't really think "fixing" this rarity problem is going to help to grow the game much. I'd probably wager that de-valuing dice has a greater chance of harm, long term. But then again, most of the owners of these type of dice are stockholders/BOD members... so if you all think its a good idea, who am I to argue? I just know it would not make me happy.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:16 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all,
I wanted to give my two cents to the fixing ultra-rare rarity discussion, having me nil of the above mentioned dice.

Ok, so near-impossible to find dice was a mistake in the old days, we all know that at this point, and SFR has chosen not to fix that in order to not upset old collectors (in a very simplistic description Smile).
It seemed the most correct way to handle it at that time and, to me, it still seems the same.

As of now, I only own a bunch of Firewalkers, and three packs worth of battlefields. So I'm one of those who could "benefit" from a revised dice distribution, since I'm starting my collection right now. Yet, I think that it is _not_ a big problem having some hard-to-find dice, especially since the newer products have been released carefully avoiding such a situation, and future products will likely be the same.

This is nothing similar to MtG catchy cards (you always end to MtG when collectible games are involved Wink) where those catchy cards where printed some 20 years ago, and you have to stick with the available ones, and none will be added. Their value is bound to grow and grow over time (until the game is played at least) as the company has stated that they won't ever be printed again.

In Dragon Dice™ there isn't a single production die you can't find in a new package, starter or kicker (this will be more true when the new battlechest will be released), so the frustration of not finding the sought-after dice will always be there (which is indeed the bad and the good of a collectible game), but the frustration of "not being there at the right time" won't.

It is always the right time to start collecting Dragon Dice™, and I am starting right now, so I _am_ in such a situation. And I wouldn't be tempted to start such a journey if some of the products was discontinued and never-to-be-printed-again.

Also, there are quite a few races out there, and only a couple of them suffer from this funny dice distribution. A player can always stay away from those races and have some fun anyway... (well, ok, this is a bit of a stretch...)


Anyway, I didn't want to be that long, I just wanted to bring my point of view, which is almost the one of a person who's approaching to the game for the first time. (I've been reading the forum for quite a bit of time now, but only few months ago I've bitten the bullet and bought my first dice. I'm still recovering from them Wink and I'm adding some new dice shortly - I've ordered them and waiting for their arrival right now. Wish me luck, as I've bough some scalders too Razz )

Danilo.

eidt: verb tenses fixed (sorry, english is not my native language - you are welcome to help me improve in it, by pointing out mistakes of mine, thanks).


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:58 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

danilo wrote:

It is always the right time to start collecting Dragon Dice™™, and I am starting right now, so I _am_ in such a situation. And I wouldn't be tempted to start such a journey if some of the products was discontinued and never-to-be-printed-again.


I just wanna say... wow. What a statement...
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:39 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

cliffwiggs wrote:
danilo wrote:

It is always the right time to start collecting Dragon Dice™™™, and I am starting right now, so I _am_ in such a situation. And I wouldn't be tempted to start such a journey if some of the products was discontinued and never-to-be-printed-again.


I just wanna say... wow. What a statement...


well... as I've put it down, it's quite sensational, but it isn't false Smile (especially if you contextualize it Razz )
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:50 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Can someone tell me why a Magi or Inferno is then "needed" in gameplay?
Quote:
Gameplay: It is unfortunate that two of the dice are the rare magic dice. But neither are must owns as armies can be built using the 1 and 2 point magic dice.
...
Frostwings and Scalders are completely playable without Magis or Infernos.
This is true if you play the basic (unrestricted) game. Not so in Single Race if you want to max out your mages. Here you can bring only 4 of each common, 3 of each uncommon, 2 of each rare and 1 of each monster. So if you bring 4-3-2, you will have 16 health of 6-sided mages. In some races you can replace one or two of these 6-siders with a mage-monster.
Unfortunately the Frostwings are not one of these races: The only mage-monster they have is the FO, one of the worst units in the game. And he is also ultra-rare.

BTW: Scalders do not have that problem, at least it is not as big. Here you can replace one Inferno with a Will-O-Wisps, and the second Inferno with a UF, which is certainly better than to replace a Magi with a FO.
Either one Inferno or one UF is easier to get (~20 kickers) than two Magis (70 kickers).
This is one reason why especially the Will-O-Wisps could get a power up in rules 3.0. Scalders should have at least one good monster and a good replacement for an Inferno in single race games.
Confuse and/or Dispel could be improved.
For instance:
1.)
Dispel does what it does (i.e. dispelling). Additionally it generates magic. (This has already been suggested.)
Here it would fit to rename Dispel into "Countermagic". Unicorn, Fenhound and Gargoyle would become mages. Confused Perhaps this is not a good Idea Question.
so instead 2.):
Dispel does what it does (i.e. dispelling). Additionally during a roll for magic, if Dispel comes up, you may reroll that unit.
There are 5 units with Dispel, 3 of them are non-mages and 2 are mages (Owl & Will-O-Wisps). If they can reroll during a magic roll those 3 non-mages will not become much better and they will not turn into a mage. Their chance to roll their ID which they can use to generate magic will only go from 10% to 12.5%, so +2.5%.
Will-O-Wisps: Their chance to roll a magic result will go from 30% to 37.5%, so +7.5%.
The Owl will turn into a 50% mage and reach the other two 50% mage-monsters (UF and Lurker).

____________________________________

Even with all that I do not want to say that molds should be remade. In my opinion it is a very bad idea. Molds will cost a lot and SFR will sell less as a result.
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There are some who will buy more Frostwings, but others will buy less. It seems that these others are dominating.

In my opinion the best solution is to reprint single 6-sided rare dice, simply with white ink. Sell those single Magis and Infernos for ~$70. If someone complains, you can say it is a limited offer.

If you still insist in new molds give Magi and Inferno new icons, thinking on a different Cantrip version: Instead of 4 straight up hands they could have one as it is seen on the Lich.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:03 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Autpost wrote:
In my opinion the best solution is to reprint single 6-sided rare dice, simply with white ink. Sell those single Magis and Infernos for ~$70. If someone complains, you can say it is a limited offer.

If you still insist in new molds give Magi and Inferno new icons, thinking on a different Cantrip version: Instead of 4 straight up hands they could have one as it is seen on the Lich.

It's not possible to make just Magi or Inferno dice. All the rares are in one mold. It's the number of cavities in the mold that sets the rarity. The Frostwing and Scalder "promo" dice were an attempt to make just the rares and monsters and sell them separately. We have tons of the more common dice left and many of the rares, it's just the ultra-rares that are gone. So really that has just made things worst. Now there is a whole new set of dice that the serious collector has to try and get.

So we will not do that again.
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