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4 outta the way points

 
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Skawilly
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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 9:22 am GMT    Post subject: 4 outta the way points Reply with quote

So I posted previously about monsters w/random icon distro (referring to SAI's)

After thinking about the kings die and other forms of things, like medallions and a LONG debate with Stormywaters.

I feel that 4 pts. in general is not a big deal. I think most people should consider having 4 pts. of something not related to their strat just for a game changing event or property. Now most may disagree but for the most part these things may not help that much, but its in my experience that eventually they will kick in and it will be worth every time they did nothing and more.

I think more than 4 pts. would hurt you but these 4 pts. just dont matter. Say your going for melee/magic, grab a random 4 pts. I am very adamant about this.
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stormywaters
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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 12:29 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't disagree that a miscellaneous four points will break an army, I just disagree that the Genie is worth those points. I just don't feel his abilities are game-changing enough.

I'll run a Dragonslayer for breath protection. I'll run a medallion for SAIs. I'll run various monsters for Dispel Magic. I'll run a Troll for Regenerate. I'll even run a Remorhaz for Swallow. I won't, however, run a Genie in the hopes that the one-of SAI that I want will appear at the precise time to make it worthwhile. Galeforce is useless most of the time. Firewalking is cool, but Ferry and Teleport are functionally the same and more common to come up.

I just don't see it.
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DEEPBLUEB2
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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 4:46 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Use bonus points (magic items) to gain some extra points for the King.
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Skawilly
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:40 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am gonna bump this thread. Still curious about this.

Lately I have been throwing in a rare Eldarim or Master/Lord specifically to promote kin on my way to 8. Its been very successful.

I still feel that 4 points outta 36 can take you very far if you distribute it some place odd. Even a simple bronze medal can do that. Or a griffon/unicorn. Just something to give your army the edge.
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Skawilly
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:00 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, this 4 randomly spent points is a base of my current strats as of late.

But, on another thread we had a discussion of amazons. From there the craziest idea came to me. Bottom line, just for fun I decided to take a medusa and stick her in reserves the entire game. I played as if she was not there, as far as my next moves were concerned.

It was perhaps one of the best decisions I could have made. I did eventually move it to 2 medusas which is nice because just about every other round one should get a stone off.

I just played my swampstalker/calv army as a turtle on my swampland as if a normal game ensued. If I split my SS's up I simply would not act with the medusas. it was amazing having them there giving me a second march in time of a turtle and a free smite every now and again.
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stormywaters
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:36 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skawilly wrote:
So, this 4 randomly spent points is a base of my current strats as of late.

But, on another thread we had a discussion of amazons. From there the craziest idea came to me. Bottom line, just for fun I decided to take a medusa and stick her in reserves the entire game. I played as if she was not there, as far as my next moves were concerned.

It was perhaps one of the best decisions I could have made. I did eventually move it to 2 medusas which is nice because just about every other round one should get a stone off.

I just played my swampstalker/calv army as a turtle on my swampland as if a normal game ensued. If I split my SS's up I simply would not act with the medusas. it was amazing having them there giving me a second march in time of a turtle and a free smite every now and again.


So I have to comment on a few things here.

1. It's "cav", not "calv". The word is "cavalry". Sorry I'm a stickler.

2. I think the Medusa or Spearer in reserves is a fine idea for supporting a turtle, but if you are splitting your SS and leaving two Medusas is reserves, you're tying up almost 25% of your total forces. I get that it's useful when you're turtling, or not taking another march elsewhere, but ultimately this is a game of min-maxing. I can justify tying up nearly a quarter of my army in reserves if they're not doing anything.

3. I've been dumping a random 4 points into Dispel Magic. I know you need two or three to get a decent chance of Dispel, but Will o' Wisp is a solid monster anyway, so I drop him with my mages. Unicorn is a good unit also, so I can stick him with Cav or Melee. It doesn't proc often, but the monsters are good and when it does proc, it's really useful. You rarely get hit with a random one-off spell; usually it's a couple TRtM, a couple Dragons, or some other big effect. A single Dispel proc can break a game.
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Skawilly
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:50 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

But honestly ya 1 medusa is better than 2, Still though, I just dont mind being that short of points.

Lastly, its not there to support a turtle. Its just nice to have when you do turtle. It always depends on the situation and/or setup. I think with SS's 2 are better, maybe with Undead or dwarves 1 might be better.
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stormywaters
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:58 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skawilly wrote:
Lastly, its not there to support a turtle. Its just nice to have when you do turtle. It always depends on the situation and/or setup. I think with SS's 2 are better, maybe with Undead or dwarves 1 might be better.


Well, either it's supporting a turtle, or you're not using them at all, or you have two armies at terrains but you're not using one of them.

Which of those, besides supporting a turtle, is a good use of points?
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Blindfury
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:53 pm GMT    Post subject: Re-random elements Reply with quote

No offense intended, but I think your strategy has some flaws.
The successful armies I’ve seen focus on certain kinds of tasks (the big 5 or some specific combination of SAIs and terrain.) Focus breeds consistency and quantity of results.
If you’re advocating for adding a unit with diverse IDs, then what you’re saying is that you’re hoping that at the one random time you need it a very statistically unlikely result will be rolled.
Monsters like unicorns, griffins, and fireshadows are used specifically because they can be somewhat relied upon to perform a specific task. Likewise, medallions are hardly what I’d call random. Bronze and gold icons are useful any time they come up. There are only a limited number of options for medallions. The rolls they contribute too are very common. So they aren’t what I’d call random at all.
If you’re selecting a monster or artifact that doesn’t perfectly dovetail with your strategy in order to counter a specific circumstance, that’s a contingency. If you’re selecting a monster just to add some randomness to your results then you’re essentially handicapping your army. Those points could have otherwise been spent on dice that could have enhanced the consistency and quantity of your die rolling.
That’s why magic is so desirable. You can get a magic unit to produce consistent results and then turn them into whatever strategic choice best fits your current needs. It doesn’t matter what stage of the game you’re at, a bunch of magic points will probably give you a tool you can put to good use.
I like picking components for fun and flavor some times, but randomness isn’t a strategic advantage in—and—of—itself.
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Kevsquatch
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:39 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

No offense intended Blindfury, but I think criticism concerning the strategy of a player whom you have never had a duel with has some flaws. Perhaps you have missed the point that through randomness of a sort, one can discover strategies that range from nice little tricks to complete revelations. What's wrong with experimenting a bit to develop new and unique techniques? I find it vastly more entertaining and challenging to go up against an adaptive player who uses originality and versatility as their tools to achieve victory rather than the tidal wave of troll splashing, medallion running, Path/TRTM addicts who seem to be running around like lemmings at this point copying each other like #132 (ditto) vs. #132 (ditto) all day every day. This is a game first and foremost, you will lose, and if you are afraid to deviate from the "tried and true" you are missing out in the long term.

If more people dedicated 4-8 points to experimental monster/s and/or some magic items during casual play, the overall skill level of Dragon Diceâ„¢ players would rise substantially, new combos would eventually fall into place, Vorpal swords and Heartseekers might finally be recognized as viable strategic options, Unicorns would show up in Frostwing armies. And of course then we would have to stir up the pot all over again.

These rampant nitpickeries are beginning to grossly outweigh the well deserved positively charged collaborations that should be happening on these forums, and I hope that turns around once spring hits. Lets all get some vitamin D and relax. Good ideas wont kill us for crapssakes. I think constructive criticism is a better option than the nerdy Hal 5000 "you didn't spell/say/phrase/sell that right, Dave" unempathic nonsense that's been bombarding all the decent original concepts around the forums lately. Encourage new ideas, don't shut them out because they perturb the paradigm we have become comfortable with.


Last edited by Kevsquatch on Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:31 am GMT; edited 2 times in total
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DEEPBLUEB2
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 2:42 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
through randomness of a sort, one can discover strategies that range from nice little tricks to complete revelations.


So true!!


Quote:
What's wrong with experimenting a bit to develop new and unique techniques?


I've even enter tournaments with untested armies based on tweaked winning armies just to find out what might happen...
keep up the possitive!!!!

Razz
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Urfaes
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:25 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kevsquatch wrote:
No offense intended Blindfury, but I think criticism concerning the strategy of a player whom you have never had a duel with has some flaws.


Pot, meet kettle. Unless you've been present in Blindfury's gaming circle, that is.

Kevsquatch wrote:
What's wrong with experimenting a bit to develop new and unique techniques? I find it vastly more entertaining and challenging to go up against an adaptive player who uses originality and versatility as their tools to achieve victory rather than the tidal wave of troll splashing, medallion running, Path/TRTM addicts who seem to be running around like lemmings at this point copying each other like #132 (ditto) vs. #132 (ditto) all day every day ... If more people dedicated 4-8 points to experimental monster/s and/or some magic items during casual play...


Back on topic:

Blindfury, Skawilly and, obviously, yourself, approach the game in two different ways. This being the Game Strategy forum, Blindfury offered the suggestion that 4 points of random dice isn't necessarily the best strategy. I'd think that's a fair observation.

That being said, I agree that experimentation with unit types forces a player to be light on their feet. This evening, I took what I'd guess would be a Dragon Diceâ„¢ equivalent to a Highlander list: 1 of each type of common, uncommon and rare with 1 monster and an uncommon magic item. That was probably the most bewildering game of Dragon Diceâ„¢ I've ever played.

There was no sure thing. I had three mages. A Beholder. Winged Sandals because I'd figured that was the most universal item I could find. I was forced to think on my feet, going so far as having my elves abandon their home terrain and sit on a Swampland Tower, of all things, trying to figure out what to do.

I guess I'd go one step further and go beyond just the four points. Make yourself one with everything and figure out which units and strategies work best for your play style.
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TheLazyhase
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:11 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

By the way, does sealed/draft rules exist for Dragon Diceâ„¢ ? In TCG, sealed and draft format often show you hidden use for nontrivial cards.

I would then add that usually, spending 4 point on something completely suboptimal in DragonDice is not that bad, because the difference between the worst dice (Ettercap ? Frost ogre ?) and the best one is reasonably slim. If you put too much bad dice, it will be a complete rout, but 1/9 seem fine and don't give too much of an handicap in my opinion (and my experience).
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Blindfury
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:40 am GMT    Post subject: re-hal 5000 Reply with quote

Ok,
Let me try this again. Skawilly, I disagree with your premise that unpredictability in an army is an effective strategy (see previous post for explanation.) That said, I’m all for experimentation and play testing, especially with dice you wouldn’t ordinarily try out. In my experience, medallions are reliable, but not as useful as common wisdom would suggest, likewise trolls. My previous comments were intended to address the mathematical premise of randomness as a strategy and not an attack on creative thinking.
I should have said that versatility is a good thing and taking something like a couple of chimera in an army for the chance to make one immune to magic and missile attacks or adding wolf pack to missile armies to reduce the enemy saves seems like it would be especially awesome.
Oh, and draft/sealed Dragon Diceâ„¢ sounds frigging sweet.
I so want to play a game of two headed Dragon Diceâ„¢ giant. Something like you and your partner pay $30 and open a kicker of goblins, dwarves, lava elves, coral elves, battle chest, and dragonkin. From those 6 kickers you have to build two 18 point armies which you then throw down against other like pairings of opponents.
How about peasant Dragon Diceâ„¢, with only armies of commons allowed?
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TheLazyhase
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:30 am GMT    Post subject: Re: re-hal 5000 Reply with quote

Blindfury wrote:
I so want to play a game of two headed Dragon Diceâ„¢™ giant. Something like you and your partner pay $30 and open a kicker of goblins, dwarves, lava elves, coral elves, battle chest, and dragonkin. From those 6 kickers you have to build two 18 point armies which you then throw down against other like pairings of opponents.


Now, we just have to figure if the two head have different home, and if it's the case, how many 8 face should be controlled Smile

(also, you need terrains)

Blindfury wrote:

How about peasant Dragon Diceâ„¢™, with only armies of commons allowed?


I am less sure of the interest of that, mainly because a full common army seem to already be a decent army. Then again, it's good for beginner, since only one SAI need to be explained.
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Blindfury
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 2:42 pm GMT    Post subject: re-2hg Reply with quote

If we’re following the MTG 2HG template, I’d think the store would have a selection of terrain dice available to choose from. Alternatively, you could add a kicker of battle map. I’d think the easiest way to do things would be to treat each team as a single 36 point army with a corresponding choice of dragons. An expensive but entertaining format.
From my own experience, playing with an all-common army makes the game simpler for starting players. SAIs add a level of complexity and timing that can be challenging. If I had it all to do over again, I wish I had started without SAIs and worked my way up, reading the rules multiple times. As it is, I’ve had to unlearn much of what I originally took to be self evident. Actually, my group has been re-reading the rules and double checking everything lately. I have a new appreciation for how complex a game can be.
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Urfaes
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:30 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sealed and Draft rules can be found in the Tournament Rules, section 4.2 http://www.sfr-inc.com/TournamentRules.pdf.

I've never actually played two headed giant. I should look into trying that. Especially when using the Nature vs. Death variant also found in the Tournament Rules: Death armies have the black element; Nature armies don't.

My Uncommon Army (uncommon magic item + relatively even distribution of uncommon dice) didn't fare all that well; I'd be interested in trying an all common army to see how that compares.
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Blindfury
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:25 am GMT    Post subject: re-all uncommon army Reply with quote

But your 1-of-everything tree folk stomped me like a boss.
God, I hate tree folk. That was brutal.
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stormywaters
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:13 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I felt this post was way out of line, so I wanted to say a few things.

Kevsquatch wrote:
No offense intended Blindfury, but I think criticism concerning the strategy of a player whom you have never had a duel with has some flaws.


How does the player matter to the strategy? Skawilly made his case, Blindfury said he disagreed. DD, like all games, is pure math. I agree with Blindfury, and I've played Skawilly a lot, and discussed this subject at length.

Quote:
I find it vastly more entertaining and challenging to go up against an adaptive player who uses originality and versatility as their tools to achieve victory rather than the tidal wave of troll splashing, medallion running, Path/TRTM addicts...


And I find it more fun to win using whatever is available, even if that means Troll spam and Path. What makes your version of fun the correct version?

Quote:
...who seem to be running around like lemmings at this point copying each other like #132 (ditto) vs. #132 (ditto) all day every day. This is a game first and foremost, you will lose, and if you are afraid to deviate from the "tried and true" you are missing out in the long term.


Your last sentence is missing the words "in my opinion". If I find a winning army, I'll play it as long as it wins. That's fun to me, and I don't feel like I'm "missing out" on anything. I relish in the victory, not just in the ingenuity. Different strokes for different folks. Don't presume that your idea of fun is universal.

Quote:
If more people dedicated 4-8 points to experimental monster/s and/or some magic items during casual play, the overall skill level of Dragon Diceâ„¢™ players would rise substantially, new combos would eventually fall into place, Vorpal swords and Heartseekers might finally be recognized as viable strategic options, Unicorns would show up in Frostwing armies. And of course then we would have to stir up the pot all over again.


This is a huge maybe. Maybe everyone runs random monsters and nothing changes. Everyone goes "Huh, I guess I wasted those points" and reverts to the tried and true. I've yet to have that random monster be worth his points in the long run. Sure, there's an occasional "Haha!" moment, but it's not worth the points in my experience. YMMV.

Quote:
These rampant nitpickeries are beginning to grossly outweigh the well deserved positively charged collaborations that should be happening on these forums, and I hope that turns around once spring hits. Lets all get some vitamin D and relax. Good ideas wont kill us for crapssakes. I think constructive criticism is a better option than the nerdy Hal 5000 "you didn't spell/say/phrase/sell that right, Dave" unempathic nonsense that's been bombarding all the decent original concepts around the forums lately. Encourage new ideas, don't shut them out because they perturb the paradigm we have become comfortable with.


You seem to be confusing "I disagree with your new idea and here's why" with "I hate new things and you're stupid". I thought Blindfury made a well-stated, well-reasoned argument, and you pounced. I think that you are at fault here, not him.
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