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Alternate Expansion Concept

 
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:24 pm GMT    Post subject: Alternate Expansion Concept Reply with quote

To keep this thread self contained, let me repeat some information.

The goal of this proposal is to change items so that body parts define Breed and items do not.

Some examples on why this change is needed:

+ All death body part but one Fire Item shouldn't mean that I'm not a daemon daemon or that my sword isn't on fire.
+ One death body part and all fire items shouldn't mean that I'm immune to Red ray/gas/poison but not Black.
+ A Blood Sword can't drink blood
+ A Fester Sword can't be filled with Pus
+ A stench buckler can't stink
i.e. all thematic issues, and this change could introduce more strategy in construction.

Why can't items just be colorless:
+ Because we already have the product in colors
+ We can't ignore the colors
+ The colors should have meaning
+ We can't mix all colors together in a single box

What are some challenges to this proposal:
+ Breed rules in starter do not call out that only Body parts define breed. However it does call out Flesh and Blood which items do not have. We can clarify this in the expansion rules.
+ The rule for 50/50 halfbreeds would technically be listed in the wrong section of the rules
+ Frost ability should only come from the Frost Body parts (Frost Items would be defined elsewhere)
+ Fire ability should only come from the Fire Body parts (Fire Items would be defined elsewhere)
+ What abilities could be given to items that are not overpowering, but not so weak that they don't matter?
+ What breed ability works for both a sword and a shield and a potion?
+ Can we define 8 unique abilities?

So should we attempt this? Can we accomplish it?

W/o this change a few items need to be changed to be 'better' than the similar body part. With this change we could leave them the same, but they have an ability that is different that the body part breed.

I think that the last points are the only ones not easily addressed. Expansion rules are expected to change base rules, but the design needs to meaningful to give a reason for the colors/breeds.

We can't want to get into defining different abilities for fire shields and fire swords. Thats too much to remember. However, we could break the items down in categories and while I don't want to call out only one item to be affected by breed. I could see categories being affected.

Offensive (can cause damage) - Axe,Mace,Scythe,Staff,Sword,Trident,Wand,Shield,Dart
No damage - Buckler,Whip
Support - Potion
Affects Immunity - Bellows,Dart,Wand

To keep it simple, I think that only the item logo gets an ability. The wound icon on an item is just a wound. A minus is just a minus. no special abilities.

The Potion is the easiest. You just make it only affect body parts of that color. Done.

The Bellows and Dart and wand are already affected by immunity, so either the plastic or ink or both could define the gas/poison/ray type affected.

The Whip doesn't cause damage, only thing I can think of is either strong or weak against a matching breed. Needs work.

Similarly , the buckler/shield could be strong/weak against a matching breed. needs work.

So the largest part is for the offensive items. What makes a Fire Sword different than a Stench sword or a death sword? 8 unique abilities that aren't overpowering, but are meaningful.

I need to think it through, but wanted to throw this out there and see what others think of the concept.
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chuckpint
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:00 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cliff, I'm going to steal your usual role and go sideways....

I'm going to question one of your assumptions. I contend we can ignore colors. What if we decided that the colors are simply variations of each other like we did for Acolytes of Eldarim? That said, perhaps for most items, color is meaningless. So for Axe, Buckler, Mace, Potion, Scythe, Shield, Staff, Sword, Trident, and Whip, the color doesn't matter. For the items that are rays, gases, or poisons; Bellows, Dart, and Wand, the color does matter because of immunities.

Another completely random thought: what if an item didn't work as well unless it was wielded by a pure-bred or half-bred (determined only by body parts)? So if a Frost daemon picks up and uses a Fire sword, instead of wounding, it only does a stun? The Wound icon would still do a wound, but the Sword face would be downgraded. Now you might ask, why in the world would we want to do this? No one would ever want to use the "wrong" type of item when building a daemon. The reason is that it plays into another idea I've had about items....

So if an item gets "stunned", we are treating that as a drop. If an item get "wounded", we are treating that as destroyed. Why does that matter? This is arena combat. So if you drop your Sword, there is always a chance that your opponent could pick it up before you do. So going back to the example above, if a Fire daemon drops a Sword, and a Frost daemon picks it up, the Frost daemon can use it, just not as well as a Fire daemon could. That also has a side effect that makes the Brain just a little more powerful. Only a targeted attack can hit an item. Currently that can only be done with a Brain attached to the attack.
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First Place at the first ever Daemon Diceā„¢ sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Diceā„¢, 20,000 Daemon Diceā„¢, and others (too many to count).
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:13 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chuck, you posted as I was writing this, so let me merge a reply to you into what I already had written up.

I thought about this while eating lunch and had a thought to make it simpler. ironically your completely random thought is close to mine, I just went sideways the other way.

Instead of trying to define 8 abilities that mimic the body type ability, we just define a simple rule that activates based on matching or non-matching plastic/ink/both.

Where you mention upgrading an item if it matches the body part breed. I was going to let the defending die affect the upgrade.

i.e.
A Sword might get its built in boost(plus) unless defended by a "matching" block. So I can block a Fire Sword with a Fire Block or two stench blocks. (I know how to defend against myself the best)

A Mace might do a single wound against a "matching" half/pure breed, but double damage if not matching. (I know how to kill others best)

I think that we could merge the two ideas and have some items be based on YOUR breed and some on MY breed and some on the specific die chosen to defend with.

Your thought of picking up another persons item... an interesting concept. I know this wouldn't happen a lot, but when it does you would have to keep careful track of which dice belong to which player and we would need to redefine some terms. let me think about it.

Either way, if we can agree that we want to do SOMETHING along these lines. then I can quickly identify the small tweaks that the starter rules would need to allow us to head this direction w/o contradicting the printed rules.

These ideas also mean that this is more of a true expansion. We would even say that items are added on top of a 13 die daemon or maybe you trade out body parts 2 for 1 or 1 for 2 instead of just 1 for 1... maybe thats too radical.
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:37 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuckpint wrote:
This is arena combat. So if you drop your Sword, there is always a chance that your opponent could pick it up before you do.


This gives me an idea for an awesome event. We would need item rules to be released (so maybe next year at gencon). But you could start the battle 'naked' (only body parts) and there are items laying around in the arena (i.e. a summoning pool).

Thus you could choose to attack first and fast OR you could spend your pluses to pick up items and prepare yourself.
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piMaster
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 11:25 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cliff you're killing me Razz I've managed to make a computer version (based on 1G ruleset) that plays thru an entire game (human against 1-5 computer oppenents). Its kinda fun to watch the CPU players beat each other up Laughing

Anyway,
- Using other peoples items may sound good on paper, but we go to great lengths to avoid this in Dragon Diceā„¢ and that might be a good idea here too.
- This game is basically a beer and pretzels game. Typically a two player game lasts about 5-10 rounds. Don't try to make it too complicated - simplicity is one of the hallmarks of this game.
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:21 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

:-p

The 'touching other peoples dice' was my first issue too. That's why I mentioned a special event and not core rules.

However, we could still implement the 'optional power-up' idea and keep Breed to be defined by body parts and not items.

I've made a similar script to let computer players beat up each other, but the hard part was deciding what parts to damage or what parts to target.

I'm curious how you decided to handle that.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:20 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want I can zip up a copy of the program and email it to you. The computer player's AI is split up into multiple script files so that anyone can rewrite the computer player's AI (and most likely make them better than what I came up with). Right now its "good enough" for me to test the program as I write it, but there are obviously some things that need improvement.
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:29 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chuck, if this is a 'go' then we need to tweak the booster and starter rules.

The 'pick up oterh people can be discussed more and the specific abilities can be discussed, but the general idea seems to be sound and agreed to?
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chuckpint
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:34 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is it in the starter rules that you want to change? I'm going to get these printed this weekend, so I can get this packaged next week. So we need to finalize the starter rule changes by tomorrow.
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You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Diceā„¢ sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Diceā„¢, 20,000 Daemon Diceā„¢, and others (too many to count).
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:24 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm using Bold for sections I would like changed.

In Breed Abilities:

Quote:
Daemons come in different breeds, indicated by the color of the dice plastic (flesh) and ink (blood). Those composed completely of body parts from a single plastic/ink mix are purebreds. Those with at least half (but not all) of their body parts of a single plastic/ink mix are half-breeds. Those with no two body part dice exactly alike are mongrels (unless their dice and ink colors qualify them as a half-breed or pure-breed). Each type of daemon receives special powers in play.



The half/half exception can stay where it is. unless you want to bring that sentence into the Breed area. I'm ok with either.

In half breeds:
Quote:
Example: A half-breed with seven red-plastic/black-ink body parts is immune to the effects of rays, gas, and poison of all red plastic dice and all black ink dice.



In Frost Powers:
Quote:
Any body parts stunned by an attack from a frost daemon's body parts are doubly expensive to recover via pluses, other methods to recover are unaffected



The rest of the starter rules can stay as is. There is a similar change to the Fire ability as well, but we need to talk about booster rules in another thread.
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chuckpint
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:49 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

New version posted: http://www.sfr-inc.com/daemondice/DaemonDiceStarterRules.pdf

Besides the changes, I left in the word "dice" so it's consistently saying "body part dice".

I also added a link at the very end.

Let me know if that covers it all.
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You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Diceā„¢ sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Diceā„¢, 20,000 Daemon Diceā„¢, and others (too many to count).
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:08 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

looks good to me. Let's print it!

now to get the booster done and then expansion...
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