SFR, Inc.

[cliffwiggs]

So first, we don't play enough of this game on the forum.

Second, there was a theory from a player that came up at Pax. It wasn't the right time to get into a statistical discussion, but I wanted to try their design out.

My prediction is that it is a strong build, but not an unbeatable one.

So if no one wants to play with me, then I will just play with myself.

Any takers?
_________________
Multiplayer Champion Gencon11/Battlefest Champion(tied) GenCon10/World Champion GenCon07/National Champion Origins05/Intermediate Champion GenCon02/Novice Champion Origins99

[chuckpint]

I think I know where this one is going. Sure, I'll take it on. Note that I will be more off-line than on-line for the next week....
_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Diceâ„¢ sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Diceâ„¢, 20,000 Daemon Diceâ„¢, and others (too many to count).

[cliffwiggs]

Not a problem on the availablity and I made it pretty clear what I'd be testing.

The internet is forever, so i'm trying to keep it nice and clean, but the individual had just learned from the demo so knew little about immunity or any dice that didn't happen to be in their build.

I don't expect this test to take long.

If you are immune to both gas and poison, then this build has no defenses. So, I'm interested mainly in the non-immune version of this. and just for fun I'll make it a mongrel across some of the unreleased breeds.
_________________
Multiplayer Champion Gencon11/Battlefest Champion(tied) GenCon10/World Champion GenCon07/National Champion Origins05/Intermediate Champion GenCon02/Novice Champion Origins99

[cliffwiggs]

This is my daemon and Initiative Roll:(a mongrel)

Daemon
Initiative

Initiative:10 Minuses:10 Targeted Minuses:0

Use this link to clone this daemon.Use this link to take your next turn.
_________________
Multiplayer Champion Gencon11/Battlefest Champion(tied) GenCon10/World Champion GenCon07/National Champion Origins05/Intermediate Champion GenCon02/Novice Champion Origins99

[chuckpint]

This is my daemon:

Use this link to clone this daemon or roll initiative.
_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Diceâ„¢ sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Diceâ„¢, 20,000 Daemon Diceâ„¢, and others (too many to count).

[chuckpint]

This is my Initiative Roll:

Daemon
Initiative

Initiative:5 Minuses:1 Targeted Minuses:0

Use this link to clone this daemon.Use this link to take your next turn.

Not bad. 5 out of a maximum of 6 I could have gotten for initiative. So you go first, and only have one Minus. This could hurt....
_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Diceâ„¢ sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Diceâ„¢, 20,000 Daemon Diceâ„¢, and others (too many to count).

[cliffwiggs]

A very close build to what I like to do.

I got the initiative and you have one minus against me.

ROLL-MINUS
I'll take it as my Rot stinger (since it is the one you are immune too).

ROLL
This is my daemons roll:

	Active	Minuses	Grabbing	Grabbed	Stunned	Wounded
Daemon
Rolled

Use this link to clone this daemon or update it or take next turn.

no RECOVER

no DEFEND

ARRAY ATTACK

2 Lung and 4 Minus
2 Stingers (poison) with 4 plusses on one (I don't think it matters since you are only immune to Rot)

EOT
_________________
Multiplayer Champion Gencon11/Battlefest Champion(tied) GenCon10/World Champion GenCon07/National Champion Origins05/Intermediate Champion GenCon02/Novice Champion Origins99

[chuckpint]

This is my daemons roll:

	Active	Minuses	Grabbing	Grabbed	Stunned	Wounded
Daemon
Rolled

Use this link to clone this daemon or update it or take next turn.

Ok, I can block the Stinger without any pluses. Can't block the other one. So I suffer one stun and one wound. I'll wound a Leg and stun a Leg.

So two Stuns and one Arm will be my attack. I'll put a Plus on the Arm. Nothing to Rot this turn....
_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Diceâ„¢ sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Diceâ„¢, 20,000 Daemon Diceâ„¢, and others (too many to count).

[cliffwiggs]

The stinger that hits becomes stunned.

No minuses to account for.

Rolling:
This is my daemons roll:

	Active	Minuses	Grabbing	Grabbed	Stunned	Wounded
Daemon
Rolled

Use this link to clone this daemon or update it or take next turn.

Recover, as a mongrel I recover the stunned stinger.

Defend:
I can't ever defend with this build, which is it's weakness.

Suffering 3...
2 lungs (which had rolled pluses) and a stinger (which had rolled a minus)

Attack:

3 minuses
2 stingers (poison), one with 4 plusses. I'm playing conservatively and not risking you blocking both.


EOT

This is the status of my daemon:

	Active	Minuses	Grabbing	Grabbed	Stunned	Wounded
Daemon

Use this link to clone this daemon or update it or take next turn.
_________________
Multiplayer Champion Gencon11/Battlefest Champion(tied) GenCon10/World Champion GenCon07/National Champion Origins05/Intermediate Champion GenCon02/Novice Champion Origins99

[chuckpint]

This is my daemons roll:

	Active	Minuses	Grabbing	Grabbed	Stunned	Wounded
Daemon
Rolled

Use this link to clone this daemon or update it or take next turn.

I'll use the Plus to recover the stunned Leg.

So can't block the Stinger with 4 Pluses. I can easily block the other one.
So I'll Wound the Leg that I just recovered, and Stun the minused Mouth.

So 2 Minuses at you.
Attack will be 2 Arms, and 1 Stun.

Rot the Stinger.

EOT
_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Diceâ„¢ sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Diceâ„¢, 20,000 Daemon Diceâ„¢, and others (too many to count).

[cliffwiggs]

I just realized something. Technically on your first turn you COULD'VE rotted something because the stinger was stunned as soon as you suffered the damage. So Stinger against a Rot isn't good for me.


Stinger stunned when it attacked you.
A Stinger is rotted.
2 minues will be: stingers

This is my daemons roll:

	Active	Minuses	Grabbing	Grabbed	Stunned	Wounded
Daemon
Rolled

Use this link to clone this daemon or update it or take next turn.

two plusses will recover a stinger and a lung.

Suffering 3 - the minused stingers and the recovered lung.

Attack:

2 lungs + 2 minuses
one stinger poison,no plusses


This is the status of my daemon:

	Active	Minuses	Grabbing	Grabbed	Stunned	Wounded
Daemon

Use this link to clone this daemon or update it or take next turn.

This is turning out about how I expected. I think we just passed the tipping point.
_________________
Multiplayer Champion Gencon11/Battlefest Champion(tied) GenCon10/World Champion GenCon07/National Champion Origins05/Intermediate Champion GenCon02/Novice Champion Origins99

[chuckpint]

This is my daemons roll:

	Active	Minuses	Grabbing	Grabbed	Stunned	Wounded
Daemon
Rolled

Use this link to clone this daemon or update it or take next turn.

Minus the Shells, Tails, and Eyes.

Nothing to recover

Use one Arm to deflect the Stinger.
Nothing to suffer

4 Attacks: 1 Arm, 1 Stun, and 2 Mouths.

Rot the Death Stinger.

EOT
_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Diceâ„¢ sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Diceâ„¢, 20,000 Daemon Diceâ„¢, and others (too many to count).

[cliffwiggs]

no minus.

This is my daemons roll:

	Active	Minuses	Grabbing	Grabbed	Stunned	Wounded
Daemon
Rolled

Use this link to clone this daemon or update it or take next turn.

did I forget to mongrel last time? think I did.

Use mogrel and two Pluses to Recover the Stinger/Lung/Lung

Suffer 4 - The Stinger/Lung/Lung that were recovered and a plusing lung.

Attacks

Lung + 2 minus
Stinger & a plussed Stinger

EOT
This is the status of my daemon:

	Active	Minuses	Grabbing	Grabbed	Stunned	Wounded
Daemon

Use this link to clone this daemon or update it or take next turn.
_________________
Multiplayer Champion Gencon11/Battlefest Champion(tied) GenCon10/World Champion GenCon07/National Champion Origins05/Intermediate Champion GenCon02/Novice Champion Origins99

[chuckpint]

You wounded the wrong Stinger, I wanted you to leave the Rot Stinger, and Wound the Death Stinger....

This is my daemons roll:

	Active	Minuses	Grabbing	Grabbed	Stunned	Wounded
Daemon
Rolled

Use this link to clone this daemon or update it or take next turn.

So minus the 2 Mouths and 2 Tails.

Nothing to recover

Use the Shell to stop the plused Stinger
Use the Arm to stop the other Stinger
Nothing to suffer

No minuses
Attack: 2 Stuns, 1 Eye, and 1 Eye with a Plus.

Rot the Death Lung

So you should have wounded: Fire Stinger, Death Stinger, and Death Lung. I assume you would have the Rot Stinger stunned.
_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Diceâ„¢ sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Diceâ„¢, 20,000 Daemon Diceâ„¢, and others (too many to count).

[cliffwiggs]

I think I fixed it, but I don't think it matters. or maybe I didn't fix it right...

I'm trying to kill stingers and lungs evenly.
if I kill lungs, then I can't recover
if I kill stingers, then I can't attack

I think this is proving this build is NOT all powerful.

but here is my turn.
This is my daemons roll:

	Active	Minuses	Grabbing	Grabbed	Stunned	Wounded
Daemon
Rolled

Use this link to clone this daemon or update it or take next turn.

Recover a stinger with the plus.
then stun it again AND the plussing lung and the two minusing stingers.

that leaves 3 lungs against you and one stinger (my only active one).

This is basically over, but finish it out in one last turn.
_________________
Multiplayer Champion Gencon11/Battlefest Champion(tied) GenCon10/World Champion GenCon07/National Champion Origins05/Intermediate Champion GenCon02/Novice Champion Origins99

[chuckpint]

This is my daemons roll:

	Active	Minuses	Grabbing	Grabbed	Stunned	Wounded
Daemon
Rolled

Use this link to clone this daemon or update it or take next turn.

Nothing to recover

Easily Block the Stinger
Nothing to suffer

Attack: 3 Stuns

Rot the Death Stinger (that's the Black with Yellow ink....)

EOT
_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Diceâ„¢ sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Diceâ„¢, 20,000 Daemon Diceâ„¢, and others (too many to count).

[cliffwiggs]

I quit.
_________________
Multiplayer Champion Gencon11/Battlefest Champion(tied) GenCon10/World Champion GenCon07/National Champion Origins05/Intermediate Champion GenCon02/Novice Champion Origins99

[chuckpint]

Yea, basically if your daemon doesn't knock out 4-5 of my dice the first roll, it's going to go downhill pretty fast. With no blocks of any kind, you can't stop my attacks at all. So when they get through, you can't get them back fast enough. Combine that with the Rot ability, and you are goners.

I was thinking about the Rot ability. I think it's a bit too strong. An easy way to tone it down is to make it so the Rot player gets to tell the defender to wound a die, but the defender gets to pick. Currently the Rot player gets to pick.
_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Diceâ„¢ sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Diceâ„¢, 20,000 Daemon Diceâ„¢, and others (too many to count).

[cliffwiggs]

An interesting point.

As we found out last year at Gencon, everyone decided Rot was the stronger ability.(than Frost)

This would help it a bit, but I'm not motivated to change the rules in the box until we get a more active playerbase who starts to abuse it or complain about it.

that is a problem I would love to have. Maybe we can make that happen when we push it more this year.
_________________
Multiplayer Champion Gencon11/Battlefest Champion(tied) GenCon10/World Champion GenCon07/National Champion Origins05/Intermediate Champion GenCon02/Novice Champion Origins99

[cliffwiggs]

Bump this to the top. If we can get more daemon players we can look at modifying Rot.
_________________
Multiplayer Champion Gencon11/Battlefest Champion(tied) GenCon10/World Champion GenCon07/National Champion Origins05/Intermediate Champion GenCon02/Novice Champion Origins99