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I rolled Double Strike on my Tiger-Folk unit. What happens?

 
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UltimaGabe
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:55 am GMT    Post subject: I rolled Double Strike on my Tiger-Folk unit. What happens? Reply with quote

I was playing against some friends a few days ago, and I was playing Ferals. When making a melee attack, I rolled Double Strike. The game came to a halt for a moment as we tried to figure out what exactly happened.

In the current version of the rules, the text goes as follows: "During a melee attack or melee avoidance roll, Double Strike generates melee results; roll
this unit again and apply the new result as well." As far as I can tell, the only units that have Double Strike are Hydra (Monster), Cryohydra (Monster), Bear-Folk (Monster), Lion-Folk (Monster), Tiger-Folk (Rare), and Strangle Vine (Monster). As you can see, Tiger-Folk is the odd man out, being a Rare rather than a Monster.

When rolling one of the monsters, it makes sense that each Double Strike icon would generate four melee results and be rolled again (since each side on a monster only has one icon per side, yet it counts as four results). For the Tiger-Folk, however, there's still only one icon, meaning I'm inclined to think that Double Strike would only deal one point of melee damage by itself (in keeping with the most current rules text). While underwhelming, that's not terrible or unheard of (the Lava Elf Wyvern Rider has one side with a single Fly icon) but I'm a bit curious as to why the Tiger-Folk page on ChuckPint.com says it generates four melee results. Is that simply a matter of copy-paste from the other Double Strike entries on that site, or is that a holdover from an earlier ruleset where Double Strike may have been four melee results across the board?

For the game the other day, we ruled that it was only one point of damage and I rolled again. If that was incorrect, however, I'd like to know for future reference.
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:59 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is one of the few icon issues in the game, but it was a TSR mistake from a long time ago and there is no real way to fix it, so we do what we can.

This is from the rulebook near the beginning of the SAI section, which is a bit deep in the book.

Quote:

Each SAI on a unit counts as one point of effect. So, if a rare unit has a die face with four Cantrip icons, it counts as four points of effect. The exception is the Double Strike SAI on the Tiger-Folk unit (Feral rare heavy troop): this single SAI counts as four points of effect.


Chuck, if you haven't printed the Feral cheatsheet yet, I could update this, but if it's too late that's ok.
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UltimaGabe
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:02 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, awesome. Thanks!
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:13 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, some other 3pt dice has one icon, but they are balanced by 6 icons on the opposite side.

This one doesn't have that. That double strike has to be treated as 4 or it just kills the unit.

There are a few other dice that are 'mathematically' missing an icon and we tried having a special rule to add it back in, but it's too hard to remember to check and it doesn't make the die that much more playable. So we just leave those alone.
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UltimaGabe
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:37 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alright, one more question about this.

Since this is the only Rare unit with this kind of an exception, wouldn't it be simpler to change the Double Strike text to specify the number of melee results? If the text said, "During a melee attack or melee avoidance roll, Double Strike generates four melee results; roll this unit again and apply the new result as well." then wouldn't that be the case whether it's on a Rare or a Monster? I feel like that would be a lot more simple than including a specific exception for one die.
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:57 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

We've tried different things in the past.

At one point we had a rulebook that broke out the 3pt SAI's and the 4pt SAI's separately and did just something similar to what you describe the 'points' were built into the SAI description, but you doubled the length of the rulebook.

Take the Cantrip SAI as an example. There are 3pt units with 3 cantrip and some with 4 cantrip. So for those you have to say that the number of icons on the die are how many points of effect you have. There are also monsters with the same SAI and they count as for.

The SAI description has to be for '1' point of effect and the die has that sai 'x' number of times.

Then, It's simpler to say that all icons on a monster count as four rather than one.

If we built something into this specific SAI description, then it is still an exception and not better or worse than what we have now.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:14 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

But it would be easier to find and therefor better Smile
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shoesan
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 9:59 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

TecnoSmurf wrote:
But it would be easier to find and therefor better Smile


I agree with this line of thinking. In the case of Double Strike, I think it is far better to go ahead and address the Tiger Folk in the Double Strike SAI description text, even if it is also addressed somewhere else, just to make sure it is played properly. The instinct to find out how to resolve an SAI is going to be to look at the definition of the SAI in the SAI section of the rules. "I rolled Double Strike. How do I resolve it? Let me look up Double Strike in the rules." That is how 99% of people are going to try and resolve the roll.

You can keep the other text about the Tiger Folk in the other section of the rules, but I don't understand not wanting to put it where it would be seen the most.
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