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Web SAI
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 10:19 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

syntaxerror111 wrote:
cliffwiggs wrote:


Yes! Here take this hint coin Exclamation

Do you know what game you can use that in?


The Professor Layton series I presume?
That reminds me of a puzzle!
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piMaster
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:50 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want to make Web more interesting/useful that's fine. However, I cannot imagine why a webbed unit would be hurt/killed by the web.

Some ideas:
  • make its effect unavoidable and last until the end of your next turn
  • webbed units cannot leave the army they are in (i.e no retreating to reserves) (spells/SAIs that move units would still function as normal)
  • web immobilizes the unit. During the player's initial effects phase, the webbed unit must make a successfl melee-avoidance roll or remain webbed that turn. This continues until the unit frees itself (or is killed)
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syntaxerror111
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:15 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

piMaster wrote:
I cannot imagine why a webbed unit would be hurt/killed by the web.


Its not a stretch to think that the Web Birds or Drider simply execute their helpless opponent, or drag it away for a later meal Shocked
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DEEPBLUEB2
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:54 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did a whole revamp on extending webbed, entangled units in "how to make monsters more useful"
basically,
the concept is a unit is webbed, it stays webbed if the unit the rolled web does not roll...option.

Having Fly called out, I think Galestorm is really the only place where a specific SAI is "targeted" as a variable.

Maybe similar to Dan's thinking...

If a target unit generate maneuver results during this melee avoidance roll... then If it rolls a non SAI Maneuver icon it remains webbed.
If it rolls melee it is not webbed.
If it rolls a Fly icon (OR SAI Maneuver ICON) it suffers damage equal to its health, which it must make a save roll against.
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syntaxerror111
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:43 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I play Lava Elves, so I am no stranger to necromancy (in this case, thread necromancy)!

I was curious as to whether Web and other less used SAIs are being updated as part of the 3.0 ruleset. Its a crying shame that some monsters never see play because their SAIs are so weak!
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:20 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

syntaxerror111 wrote:
I play Lava Elves, so I am no stranger to necromancy (in this case, thread necromancy)!

I was curious as to whether Web and other less used SAIs are being updated as part of the 3.0 ruleset. Its a crying shame that some monsters never see play because their SAIs are so weak!


I believe those are targeted for 3.2

we decided we can't change everything in one big release or we would never be able to release it!

some sai's are changed in 3.0, but most were not looked at yet.
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shoesan
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:56 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about it works as it does now, and in addition, any fly results rolled by the saving army during the save roll are not counted? Given the monsters it appears on (weak monsters), it would be nice to have an army effect like dispel magic, surprise, or trumpet, where it can have a moment of serious game-changing effect. But if its only power was to negate fly results, it would be a dead SAI against an army that had no flying units. I think adding this to the SAI would improve it greatly, yet still wouldn't overbalance it since it is found on weak monsters and would vary in usefulness depending on the opposing army (whether it had fly units or not).

It would be interesting in that it would anit-save the anti-magicking Frostwings!
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:11 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

shoesan wrote:
it would be a dead SAI against an army that had no flying units.
we just changed an SAI (I think it was galeforce) that was anti-fly because it never applied. I'd be hesitant to introduce another one.
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Aravynn
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:20 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the web during a save result.

Another option could be to have web effect the opposing army in a maneuver attempt. It is something akin to setting up webs to capture prey on the move.

Something like: During a melee attack, choose up to four health-worth of units in the defending army to be webbed unless each targeted unit immediately rolls a melee result. During a Maneuver roll, minus 4 maneuvers from target army.

This also gives a distinct advantage to both web birds and driders - They are both 50% melee units and 30% maneuver, this would make them 50% for both, giving them versatility in a Cavalry based army.
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shoesan
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:35 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

cliffwiggs wrote:

we just changed an SAI (I think it was galeforce) that was anti-fly because it never applied. I'd be hesitant to introduce another one.


This is different. Its an extra effect to what the SAI already does.
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syntaxerror111
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:09 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because Web only appears on weak monsters, any change to it should be a significant increase in power. Otherwise it is all wasted effort. Making a weak SAI on two weak monsters slightly less weak will have no impact on the game.
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stormywaters
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 2:48 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

syntaxerror111 wrote:
Because Web only appears on weak monsters, any change to it should be a significant increase in power. Otherwise it is all wasted effort. Making a weak SAI on two weak monsters slightly less weak will have no impact on the game.


I agree. Monsters already need a boost to be really playable (most of the time they just don't offer enough to offset their price), and Web is definitely in need of some help.

So in my mind, I think Web can do a lot of things. Since it's only on two faces on two monster dice, it can stand a pretty large increase in power as well.

I see Web doing something like the following, and I made each "mode" targeted to keep it simple; in every case you're selecting one target to get caught in the web:

Web
During a maneuver roll, choose one unit in the opposing army; do not count that unit's results during this roll. During a melee attack roll or counterattack roll, deal 4 damage to an opposing unit which must save individually or be killed. During a melee save roll, choose one unit in the attacking army; generate saves equal to the damage dealt by that unit. During all other rolls, generate 4 saves.

Wow that's a lot of text. Yes, it's really good - monsters need more power to see play, as it's almost always better to just take a rare and a common than to take a monster (with a couple of notable exceptions), and again this is a 20% chance on two different dice; if this were on a Rare, it'd be way too good.

It's a series of "if-then" statements, followed by a single "else" clause, and each of the "if-then" statements are targeted - like shooting a web at something.

During a maneuver, you bind up a unit. Obviously this runs into issues since maneuvers are normally treated differently as they are rolled at the same time, something I would like to see changed to match all other roll types. If this is not feasible, then just make it add maneuvers or subtract from the other army.

During an attack, it's like Kick or Bullseye. Something gets trapped and attacked.

During a melee save, it's like Bash without the return damage. It snares something that is attacking.

Finally, in all other cases it's just saves - Webs trap, slow down, or otherwise hinder things, making the Webbing unit more able to survive things.
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syntaxerror111
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:41 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

stormywaters,

I wholeheartedly agree that most monsters are not playable in a competitive sense. I would love to have a discussion about this (new topic perhaps?).
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stormywaters
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:18 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

syntaxerror111 wrote:
stormywaters,

I wholeheartedly agree that most monsters are not playable in a competitive sense. I would love to have a discussion about this (new topic perhaps?).


I'm creating it right now. Hold on a second.
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stormywaters
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:55 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's up, still in the Rules forum.
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