SFR, Inc.

[stormywaters]

Let's talk about monsters and how they could be fixed. Very few of them are truly playable, and it usually revolves around one or two specifically powerful SAIs (I'm looking at you, Regenerate, Plague and Dispel Magic) that can outweigh the drawbacks of running a monster.

"Drawbacks? What drawbacks?"

Great question, other Barry. Let me address that.

Monsters suffer from a few problems not shared with most other units, chief among them being lack of reliability. Virtually 0 monsters have more than a 70% chance to roll a useful icon during a roll, and even then it's rare. Many monsters have 50% or lower chance of rolling something useful on their most common face.

Now you might think "Well lots of rares aren't highly reliable either!" That may be true, but there are a couple of other things to consider:

1. Rares cost less to field. Sure it's 1 point, but you can run 4 rares in the place of 3 monsters.

2. Rares often have reliability across two icons. There are many rares that have 67% chance of one icon and 50% of another, giving it decent utility in two areas, instead of decent utility in one and uselessness otherwise. Some of the better rares have three different icons with 50% favorability (Buffalo-Folk, Lady Nereid). While it's not a 70%, it means that it can semi-reliably save, maneuver, and attack all on one die, something nearly unheard of on monsters.

In addition to this lack of reliability, monsters just tie up too many points for their effects to be worthwhile. If we were talking about 3 points for an unreliable 4 points of effect, it might be worth it, but the price of monsters just rarely comes out as worthwhile compared to running two other dice in their stead. We're talking about a 25% reduction in price for better icon distribution. Not to mention that 6-sided dice average more than 1 icon per face per health, where monsters never do.

Let's look at some of the better monsters that really see play:

[syntaxerror111]

Here are some quick thoughts.

Monsters have 3 natural disadvantages:
1. result dilution (ID or any SAI result is only 1/10)
2. vulnerable to single target spells and abilities (ex. lightning bolt), with 4 points invested in a single unit.
3. lack of 'extra' pips. this is apparent if you analyze the raw icon output

they also have 2 natural advantages:
1. allows greater depth of army promotions (rare->monster)
2. damage mitigation when combined with other large units (varies by army composition)

It is my opinion that monsters need powerful SAIs to make them worth fielding. It is unfortunate that many SAIs found only on monsters aren't more powerful. I have a metric for comparing units based on expected performance (including rough values for SAIs), but I had better save that for another time.

The easiest fix to make more monsters relevant is to look at weak SAIs that only appear on monsters and give them a power boost. It is probably not possible to make all dice in the game equally competitive, because the icons are fixed. But this would be a good start.

Any changes to monsters, SAIs, or really any other aspect of the game need to be carefully analyzed and play-tested thoroughly to prevent unintended problems from being introduced.

More thoughts to come later.

-edited for clarity
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-Fortune favors the bald

[cliffwiggs]

FYI - we were going to go through this same exercise in a few months, I'm glad to see initiative and some thoughts. I may poke my head in, but probably won't follow word by word until I finish whats already on my plate.

As you look at monster only sai's, you will find many many that are unique and one poor monster that is unfixable.

Let me throw something completely random on the table. what if monsters were 3 health units, but each face did 4 points of effect? Does that break them or just make those 7 monsters even more desirable? what about 3 and 3?
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Multiplayer Champion Gencon11/Battlefest Champion(tied) GenCon10/World Champion GenCon07/National Champion Origins05/Intermediate Champion GenCon02/Novice Champion Origins99

[syntaxerror111]

cliff,

I am working on a post for my method of analyzing the "power level" of units. There are many things to take into account, but it may be helpful when attempting to re-balance monsters (to at least get them close).
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-Fortune favors the bald

[stormywaters]

[cliffwiggs]

[stormywaters]

[Indrid Cold]

I am putting in my 2 cents from a position of inexperience compared to the majority of you here. I've only had the game for a short time but I've played it quite a bit in that short time. And now that I've discovered that the rules appear to be, to some degree, in development, I am excited at the prospect of actually contributing "behind the scenes" in some way.

The weak-monster issue is, for me, one of the main things that stands out. They are super cool in theory, but not so strong in the game. My first thought is to lower the power of the few very strong monster SAI's, and then give the monsters an overall advantage. Something like making monsters impervious to instant kill spells such as lightning - due to their large size, or the fact that they are a swarm of creatures rather than one single creature. Perhaps this would make them too strong, but they do cost 4 after all.

If the revisions of the rules are essentially complete, or if I'm too inexperienced to offer ideas of merit, please feel free to disregard this post. If I'm speaking out of turn just chalk it up to my excitement at the possibility of actually being a part of the development of this game in some way.

[cliffwiggs]

To some extent the rules will always be in flux. It keeps the game from being stale and 'the average gamer' is always moving too.

we have a multi-release plan to change a lot of other things. SAI's and thus Monsters is one of those items. so we haven't done it yet.
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Multiplayer Champion Gencon11/Battlefest Champion(tied) GenCon10/World Champion GenCon07/National Champion Origins05/Intermediate Champion GenCon02/Novice Champion Origins99

[gorillanator]

I love the idea of segregating points value for building armies vs heath points.

It would be a great way of balancing out the power curve of certain dice and making EVERY die playable and fun.

With a game as deep as Dragon Diceâ„¢, a more flexible point system would keep the game fresh as new strategies are discovered.

Some people would call this nerfing...but I think it makes for a healthier play environment.

[cliffwiggs]

The only concern I would keep in mind is how complicated it is to remember.

Right now it is very fast to just count the health of the dice and verify your opponent brought the proper units.

The most complicated it gets, the harder it would be to verify and the most trust you have to do.
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Multiplayer Champion Gencon11/Battlefest Champion(tied) GenCon10/World Champion GenCon07/National Champion Origins05/Intermediate Champion GenCon02/Novice Champion Origins99

[gorillanator]

didn't think about that.

It would be a very complex thing to have to look up the point values to build a list.

Going back to the Monster dice...

I just find em too cool not to use.

[stormywaters]

[gorillanator]

Just another brainstorm idea:

How about if you treat monsters like dragons?
So monsters don't cost points, but you bring a fixed amount into the battle, say 1 for every 10 points.

That way they don't take up "valuable" points. They are in essence "free" and cool boosts to the army.

[eggsaladsandwich]

I have always house ruled the troll and the phoenix:
regenerate: if this unit is in the dead area at the beginning of your turn, roll it and if regenerate comes up, place it in your reserves.
RFTA is similar but only works from the buried unit area.
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"Another days useless energy spent." Moody Blues