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Attack vs Action

 
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Indrid Cold
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 11:16 pm GMT    Post subject: Attack vs Action Reply with quote

Having a little bit of confusion with regards to the terms "attack" and "action".

In the forum thread I could find related to this subject, the response was that "attack" is simply the attack, whereas "action" is both the attack and counter-attack.

However, this doesn't quite fit the wording in the rules. For example, the Illusion SAI mentions "Magic, Melee, or Missile action" implying that an action can be associated with any of these type of attacks.

I am wondering if an "action" also includes the save roll, whereas an "attack" is strictly for the attack roll.

Can you please clarify the distinction between these 2 terms? Since they're used so often, perhaps they might even be worth including in the "Terms" area of the rules...
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:04 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

please be aware when searching the forums that those discussion stretch over a long period of time and rules revisions.

so a discussion about 2.7 is not going to directly be applicable to 3.0

that being said, do you have some specific questions where these terms are causing ambiguity?

a goal for 3.0 was to use as much natural language as possible and not turn it into a finite state machine by turning everything into a game term.

In general the word Action (when used as a trigger) refers to either melee, magic, missile, or the counter melee roll. I don't think there is any case where Action is used to refer to the safe roll.

The word attack is a more generic term and used in many different contexts. that is why i hesitate to try to formally define it. The more you define it, the more you have to come up with exceptions and it gets really complex.
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Indrid Cold
dragonmount



Joined: 07 Jul 2016
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Location: Houston, TX

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:24 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

cliffwiggs wrote:
please be aware when searching the forums that those discussion stretch over a long period of time and rules revisions.

so a discussion about 2.7 is not going to directly be applicable to 3.0

that being said, do you have some specific questions where these terms are causing ambiguity?

a goal for 3.0 was to use as much natural language as possible and not turn it into a finite state machine by turning everything into a game term.

In general the word Action (when used as a trigger) refers to either melee, magic, missile, or the counter melee roll. I don't think there is any case where Action is used to refer to the safe roll.

The word attack is a more generic term and used in many different contexts. that is why i hesitate to try to formally define it. The more you define it, the more you have to come up with exceptions and it gets really complex.


All good, I was asking because there are a few instances in the rules where it is a little confusing, and a person might get the impression that they are 2 specifically different things.

For example, in the Howl SAI it says "In a melee attack or missile action" which gives the impression that attack and action are different things.

And since action is referring to missile (and missile attacks do not have counter-attacks) it is a bit perplexing why the term "action" was used in this instance.
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2016 3:23 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indrid Cold wrote:

For example, in the Howl SAI it says "In a melee attack or missile action" which gives the impression that attack and action are different things.

And since action is referring to missile (and missile attacks do not have counter-attacks) it is a bit perplexing why the term "action" was used in this instance.


Gotcha, now I understand where you are coming from and see how that is confusing.

This is a case where I wish we were in the movie 'Paycheck' and I could lock myself in a room and just come out with a finished product.

Unfortunately things take time and we made the decision to release in stages instead of all at once a year from now. Most companies would never do that, but we are not your typical company and we found that approach wasn't working for us. So we tried something different.

This 3.0 release was intended for foundation terms and processes. We purposely did not do a word by word rewrite of SAI's to keep us from starting to tweak and balance those. There is a specific phase where we will look at all SAI's as a group.

We are just in that painful transition period and will likely be here for a while.
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Indrid Cold
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Joined: 07 Jul 2016
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2016 4:50 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

cliffwiggs wrote:
Indrid Cold wrote:

For example, in the Howl SAI it says "In a melee attack or missile action" which gives the impression that attack and action are different things.

And since action is referring to missile (and missile attacks do not have counter-attacks) it is a bit perplexing why the term "action" was used in this instance.


Gotcha, now I understand where you are coming from and see how that is confusing.

This is a case where I wish we were in the movie 'Paycheck' and I could lock myself in a room and just come out with a finished product.

Unfortunately things take time and we made the decision to release in stages instead of all at once a year from now. Most companies would never do that, but we are not your typical company and we found that approach wasn't working for us. So we tried something different.

This 3.0 release was intended for foundation terms and processes. We purposely did not do a word by word rewrite of SAI's to keep us from starting to tweak and balance those. There is a specific phase where we will look at all SAI's as a group.

We are just in that painful transition period and will likely be here for a while.


Cool no problem, I totally understand and I'm in no way criticizing. I can imagine how much work it is to dot every single I and cross every single T.

I was just in the middle of a game and as I'm reading the SAI chart it suddenly occurred to me that I might be interpreting one of the basic terms wrong.
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