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Stun and the Phoenix

 
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shepdog69
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:45 pm GMT    Post subject: Stun and the Phoenix Reply with quote

Stun states:
During a melee attack, target up to X health-worth of units in the defending army to be stunned unless each targeted unit rolls a maneuver. Target units that fail their roll cannot be rolled until the end of your turn.

Assuming the target was a Phoenix, and said unit failed the maneuver save, it would not be allowed to roll until the end of the attacking players turn. If said unit should then be killed that same turn, would this result prevent it from making a "Rise from the Ashes" roll? Based on the wording, I would say yes, since the roll is supposed to be made when it goes to the DUA, which happens long before the end of the turn.

If the same Phoenix was for some reason also buried, would the stun result in it being immediately buried (for the same reason)?

Thoughts?
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chuckpint
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:23 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting. This would also apply to Entangle, Net, Sleep, and Web. All those SAIs cause units to be unable to roll for some period of time. There are a couple of things in the rules that could apply to this discussion:
Quote:
If the SAI description conflicts with the general rules for SAIs the SAI description takes precedence.
,
Quote:
Individual units that are targeted by a SAI will be affected by that SAI even if they move to another army.
and of course, the description of Rise from the Ashes:
Quote:
Rise from the Ashes: (save, unit killed or buried)
During a save roll, Rise from the Ashes generates save results. Whenever a unit with this icon is killed or buried, roll the unit; if this icon is rolled the monster goes to your reserve area.

Now I'm not sure that the second rule I've quoted applies, because in the case we are talking about, it's not moving to another army, it's moving to the DUA. The first rule is clearly the important one for this discussion. The Rise from the Ashes has a rather unique conditional that triggers it, "unit killed or buried". However, there is one more rule that is important here:
Quote:
Effects that indicate an army or unit can’t do something take precedence over any effects that indicate they could do something.
I think this last rule ices it. Stun (or the like) clearly prevent you from doing something (i.e. rolling the die). That doesn't override the trigger of Rise from the Ashes, but since you can't roll the die, you can't get the Rise from the Ashes result, therefore the unit dies (or is buried).
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:39 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did we lose the rule that units lose individual targeting effects while entering the DUA?

That rule was intended to cover situations like this (primarily the old Earthen Armor spell).

It's intention was that the moment the die left the army it lost all effects and was no longer at a terrain. Thus while traveling to the DUA, it would've been allowed to roll and once it enters the DUA it definitely would've been able to roll.

If that rule got dropped, I'd suggest we add it back in for timing issues like this.
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chuckpint
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:30 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course we lost that rule. It went away with the spells that targeted units and lasted "until used". We can look at adding back for 3.1.
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shepdog69
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:42 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would tend to prefer to keep it as it is now. Not very many units have this ability, and the Phoenix is a pretty powerful unit, and very difficult to kill as is (70% save, with a 20% chance of RftA). Combined with the Firewalker Spell Flashfire, which always seems to show up in multiples, killing them is darn near impossible. This tempers that a little, and every unit should have some weakness, in the name of game balance.

In most cases, this will simply push it into the DUA, where it could still be resurrected, or possibly RftA on it's way to the BUA.

My two cents....
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:57 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuckpint wrote:
Of course we lost that rule. It went away with the spells that targeted units and lasted "until used". We can look at adding back for 3.1.


That was a miss then. We forgot to consider 'effects' from non-spell sources.

I understand what it says now. I need time to think if it should stay that way or change and if it should be called out as a clarification in the rules or not.
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