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New Standard game

 
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eggsaladsandwich
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:51 am GMT    Post subject: New Standard game Reply with quote

2 monsters, 4 rares, 5 uncommons, , 6 commons....change out whatever for items. No more than 1/2 of your original number of actual unit dice (not counting dragonkin or items) allowed in any terrain at the end of your reinforce/retreat phase. Also, dice limit doesn't count in reserves. Seriously this makes it about the army construct and the actual game instead of who has the best "turtle" army. Pooling your units into one area and
waiting for the "God" roll cheapens the true depth of this game....but whatever, just trying to make this a popular, fair, and relevant game like it should be. Also wanting it to be profitable for you owners (only way to get truly new content, since you don't publish backing material in any way).
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DialFforFunky
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:57 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Imposing stricter rules on army construction will probably have the exact opposite effect of what you are trying to achieve. Less freedom probably wont result in greater variance. With a smaller amount of options, the 'better' armies will have less competition and less variables to account for. With a solution like a fixed build pattern there is a significant risk of tournament-armies only real differing in what commons match the personal preference.

The second part of your suggestion, where you can have no more than half your forces present at any terrain, seems a bit more interesting to me, albeit a bit artificial. One of the unintended consequences here might be that the game becomes mostly about who strikes first. Since the crippled half of an army will be unlikely to recover or have much impact on its own, it is forced to wander and do nothing, or counter-attack ineffectively. One single attack can effectively take out half of an army for the rest of the game without killing all the dice in the army. Practice should turn out it feels good to play games in this fashion, but so far I am skeptical.

Funny enough, I think the times are actually rather rough for turtle armies. Those armies used to be the ones that relied heavily on magic, and magic has been toned down several notches in the last edition. Having dice in your DUA is not the worst thing ever anymore, since burial magic isn't all that common. This opens up new avenues for armies with less direct means of resurrection. Going out there and seeking the fight rather than sitting back is more promising than ever.

There is a lot of frustration coming from your post. Understandable, given how much SFR contrasts with many companies these days. Development is slow, and the game seems happy inhabiting the super tiny niche it is in now. While these observations aren't wrong, I think we should be glad Dragon Diceâ„¢ exists at all. I can think of no company that would still maintain a game with a path as difficult as Dragon Diceâ„¢. With little space for future expansions, a relatively expensive and impractical medium for transferring a ruleset (plastic dice last a lot longer, take up more space, are less susceptible to errata's, etc...) I think most companies would have canned the game a long time ago. SFR didn't, and instead decided to make it a slow labour of love. That might be annoying, sure. But at least we have something to occasionally be annoyed about at all.


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stormywaters
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 6:09 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that this would not increase diversity. In my many years playing TCGs, restrictions lead to less variance as the format becomes "solved" and the most optimal configurations emerge. It's just the nature of competitive gaming.

Funky, I like your response a lot but I have some objections:

Quote:
One of the unintended consequences here might be that the game becomes mostly about who strikes first. Since the crippled half of an army will be unlikely to recover or have much impact on its own, it is forced to wander and do nothing, or counter-attack ineffectively.


I think this is a problem with DD in general, and something I've voiced opinions about on a number of occasions. I think the best way to fix this problem - the problem of alpha-striking, critical failures, and death spirals - is to institute a rerolling step into each roll resolution. When you roll your army, pick any number of units and reroll them. Then apply effects as normal.

This should normalize rolls and nearly eliminate all the terrible rolls that cause immense swings in games. It does mean that in general roll results will be higher, but it will even out the truly abysmal rolls. It never feels good to roll 18 points of units and hit 2 saves.

Quote:
Funny enough, I think the times are actually rather rough for turtle armies.


Not tough enough, I say. First, it's not fun for the game. It's boring, it turns games into a slog-fest, and it ruins the theme of tribes warring over strategic locations.

Second, despite the constant calls from the old-guard that it's easy to stop a turtle, I don't believe that to be true. If they are hurling Lightning Strikes, Fingers of Death, Summon Dragons, TRtM, Flash Flood, etc. at you, while summoning 'kin to protect them, I can't see a win that doesn't involve turtling yourself and attempting to push damage on them. Yes, they get one march instead of two, but that march has unlimited reach, targeted damage, terrain-warping effects, etc. This is further compounded, almost paradoxically, if they force the terrain to 1 rather than 8.

So what you're left with is an army with regeneration, protection, terrain manipulation, removal, and roll modifiers, on a location you can't attack them. Your choices are to bring in a minor and pray for a melee face that lets you connect for enough to matter (through their kin), or struggle through a hailstorm of magic.

Quote:
I think we should be glad Dragon Diceâ„¢ exists at all


This paragraph is spot-on. The game is slow to change, slow to progress, and is a huge labor of love from the company. Egg has been frustrated with this fact a number of times, and I can't say I blame him. I long for more popularity leading to more expansions, new dice, etc. That being said, I'm thankful for the game in the first place, I'm thankful for being introduced to it, and I'm thrilled that Cliff, Chuck, and the others have spent so much time, money, and effort to keep it rolling this many years.
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DialFforFunky
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 7:33 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stormywaters, that is a great response. I'll give a longer reply later, because you've provided solid discussion material, but for now I'm limited to one short remark on this point:

stormywaters wrote:
This is further compounded, almost paradoxically, if they force the terrain to 1 rather than 8.


The new rules for the minor terrains might actually be doing a superb job to counteract this. You can now bring more, they are easier available (no need to win a maneuver, only match 1 colour), never get buried and have less of a drawback on disaster. I've very much underestimated the gravity of this change. It means that bringing a Village gives you a 3/8 to start kicking mage rears anyway, with the double maneuver not being too bad either. All of a sudden there is pressure on the mages, as an attack is almost inevitable.
So, sure, mages win in the long run. That's perfectly fine game design. However, I think mages no longer automatically have the luxury of grinding you down turn after turn without fear of retribution. They are no longer near-mandatory. Their power is weakened, while the other types are catching up.


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stormywaters
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 7:52 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

DialFforFunky wrote:
The new rules for the minor terrains might actually be doing a superb job to counteract this.

*snip*

It means that bringing a Village gives you a 3/8 to start kicking mage rears anyway, with the double maneuver not being too bad either. All of a sudden there is pressure on the mages, as an attack is almost inevitable.


It is absolutely better than it was. I just don't think we are quite where we need to be on turtling yet. You still have to actually hit that melee face or waste a turn twiddling your thumbs and praying to save against a slew of (insert removal spell), debuffs, or them just flooding a terrain down to 1, dropping dragons on your head, and vacating.

Quote:
So, sure, mages win in the long run. That's perfectly fine game design. However, I think mages no longer automatically have the luxury of grinding you down turn after turn without fear of retribution. They are no longer near-mandatory. Their power is weakened, while the other types are catching up.


Yes, exactly. They feel a little less like a necessity, and that's a good thing. I'm just looking for a little more movement in that direction, and I would like the turtle to just feel like a bad idea rather than looking like an appealing solution.
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eggsaladsandwich
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 12:41 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Althoug I have always , and will continue, to be an advocate for half dice limits in terrains (as it carries on the beginning retrictions and eliminates turtleing). Would limiting 8th face advantages to a choice between double saves OR double maneuvers, or ONLY one or the other be a possible answer? I, as Stormy also, believe, against the old guards thoughts, that turtleing is one of the main problems in this game. PS, nothing but respect for SFR and the new minor terrain rules are fantastic, both thematically and logically. My suggestion for set formatted armies stems from my love of chess. As such, the ability to actually have a choice of designing your side, is very appealing to me. Having both players limited in that design has always seemed to me as an equilizing factor, leaving more to actual skill.
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