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Confuse/Flashfire question

 
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 1:29 pm GMT    Post subject: Confuse/Flashfire question Reply with quote

I've got a couple of questions about the resolution of Flashfire and Confuse:

[1] I presume Flashfire gets resolved after Instant resolution SAIs but before Special/Unique SAIs. This isn't specified in the rules but it probably should be.

[2] If my army (which has a Flashfire on it) comes under attack and my opponent rolls Confuse during the attack, which gets resolved first - the Flashfire or the Confuse?

-Brad
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 1:49 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually this pretty simple, but you are right about it not being stated very well. Basically Flashfire makes one die in your army have "Instant" results. The only difference, is that you don't keep the old results. So we need to change the way that Flashfire is worded. Something like this:

rules wrote:
Target any of your armies. Until the beginning of your next turn, one unit in the target army may be rolled again during any non-maneuver roll. Selected units ignore their original roll results and apply the new roll results instead. Reroll the selected unit after all other results are final, but before resolving any non-Instant SAIs. Multiple castings increase the effect or target another army.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 2:52 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Instead of this:

Quote:
Reroll the selected unit after all other results are final, but before resolving any non-Instant SAIs.


How about this:

Reroll the selected unit after all Instant resolution SAIs are resolved but before any Delayed/Special/Unique resolution SAIs are resolved.

-Brad
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 3:53 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd rather say "non-Instant". Then if we add a new type, it won't be wrong.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:33 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well then, how about:

Reroll the selected unit after all Instant resolution SAIs have been resolved but before any other SAIs are resolved.

(It's that part in your version that says "after all other results are final" that bothers me. All other results aren't final- in fact, only Instant results are final at the point we're resolving Flashfire.)

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 4:37 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

rules wrote:
Target any of your armies. Until the beginning of your next turn, one unit in the target army may be rolled again during any non-maneuver roll. Selected units ignore their original roll results and apply the new roll results instead. Reroll the selected unit after all Instant resolution SAIs have been resolved, but before resolving any other SAIs. Multiple castings increase the effect or target another army.


I guess no one noticed that I also changed "original roll" with "original roll results". That reinforces the idea of Instant resolution SAIs being rerolled before Flashfire takes effect. It also takes care of the problem of taking a Leopard Rider (for example) that just rolled a couple of Rends, and saying you're just rerolling the last non-Rend result. In other words, if you use Flashfire on a die, you lose all previous results, and only the new results count.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 12:32 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
That reinforces the idea of Instant resolution SAIs being rerolled before Flashfire takes effect.
...
In other words, if you use Flashfire on a die, you lose all previous results, and only the new results count.


What if I've already resolved an SAI before I reroll it?

For example, suppose I'm making a melee attack and roll a Smite and Cantrip. First I use the Smite to kill four health of units, then I use Cantrip to cast a Flashfire on this army. If I choose the unit that rolled Smite to be rerolled, I couldn't lose my previous results because its already been finalized (i.e. used).

Another example: I'm making a melee attack with an army that has a Flashfire on it and roll Stun (an Instant SAI). Some of the defender's units gets stunned and I reroll the Carrion Crawler. If I use the Flashfire on the Carrion Crawler, the defender's units would still be stunned because the Stun was resolved before the Flashfire was applied.

Basically, its the same principle as pathing away a unit after its resolved an SAI - the SAI's effect isn't retroactivly negated when the unit leaves. Or in this case, the SAI's effect isn't retroactivly negated when the unit is rerolled.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 5:40 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

You cannot reroll a die that has already had it's results used. Otherwise, you could roll a Cantrip, cast a Flashfire, reroll the Cantrip die, get another Cantrip.... It's quite simple, if you use results on a die, it cannot be rerolled to get new results.

Stun is a different case. First you roll the Stun. Then you roll again because of the Stun. If you choose to use the Flashfire on the Stun roll, you lose the Stun, and take whatever results happen. If you choose to use the Flashfire on the result of the roll after the Stun, then you don't lose the Stun, just the second result. But you must decide to use the Flashfire at the time you roll the Stun, if you don't want the Stun. If you roll a Stun, and then reroll to get a new result, the Stun is "final". You cannot reroll the Stun, but you can reroll the new result using the Flashfire.

As for Pathing a unit away, it's results are lost only if they haven't been applied yet. So if a unit rolls normal results, but is Pathed away by a Cantrip, then those results are lost. For example, say a Leopard Rider rolls a Rend, Rend, ID, during a melee attack. It would generate 9 points of melee results. But if it is Pathed away, Cantrip happens before normal results are totaled. So those 9 points of melee are lost from the army's results.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 12:22 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It also takes care of the problem of taking a Leopard Rider (for example) that just rolled a couple of Rends, and saying you're just rerolling the last non-Rend result. In other words, if you use Flashfire on a die, you lose all previous results, and only the new results count.

Quote:
First you roll the Stun. Then you roll again because of the Stun.
...
If you choose to use the Flashfire on the result of the roll after the Stun, then you don't lose the Stun, just the second result.


These two statements seem to be contradicting each other.

Also, when you put the following sentences together, they indicate that the Stun is always final (and thus Stun cannot be gotten rid of if you don't want it):

Quote:
First you roll the Stun. Then you roll again because of the Stun.
...
If you roll a Stun, and then reroll to get a new result, the Stun is "final".


Why is the Stun "final"? A Rend isn't final at this point. I'm sorry Chuck, but what you're saying about Stun contradicts itself and what you said in your post on Dec 13.

-

How about this for the correct order of opertaions:
(1) Roll the army.
(2) Reroll all Instant SAIs. If additional Instant SAIs are rolled, then continue to reroll all Instant SAIs until there are no more Instant SAIs showing.
(3) If desired, apply Flashfires now. Any unit rerolled by Flashfire loses ALL of its previous roll results. A unit that has finalized any of its results cannot be rerolled by a Flashfire.
(4) Resolve the effects of Instant SAIs (Stun and Summon Dragon).
(5) Your opponent resolves their Delayed SAIs if applicable.
(6) Resolve your Special/Unique SAIs. During this step, if you cast additional Flashfires on this army then immediately goto step 3 after the Cantrip is resolved.
(7) Apply unit modifiers.
(8 ) Apply army modifiers.
(9) Apply Late SAIs.

Perhaps we should also edit Flashfire to say that you cannot reroll a die whose results you've used?

Additional question:
If my army has two Flashfires on it, can I choose to use both Flashfires on the same unit (if I don't like the results of the first reroll) or must I choose two different units to apply Flashfire's effect?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 1:27 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
It also takes care of the problem of taking a Leopard Rider (for example) that just rolled a couple of Rends, and saying you're just rerolling the last non-Rend result. In other words, if you use Flashfire on a die, you lose all previous results, and only the new results count.

Quote:
First you roll the Stun. Then you roll again because of the Stun.
...
If you choose to use the Flashfire on the result of the roll after the Stun, then you don't lose the Stun, just the second result.


Quote:
These two statements seem to be contradicting each other.


Yes they do. However, since this is still in discussion, and no rule change has been made yet, that does not matter. The point is, we need to decide what we want to do in this case.

Quote:
Also, when you put the following sentences together, they indicate that the Stun is always final (and thus Stun cannot be gotten rid of if you don't want it):

Quote:
First you roll the Stun. Then you roll again because of the Stun.
...
If you roll a Stun, and then reroll to get a new result, the Stun is "final".


Why is the Stun "final"? A Rend isn't final at this point. I'm sorry Chuck, but what you're saying about Stun contradicts itself and what you said in your post on Dec 13.


Major difference between a Stun and a Rend. A Stun gives you "special" results, a Rend gives you "normal" results. The order of the results is based on that. Again, no rule change has been made yet. But implied, but perhaps not said correctly in the old rules, was that Stun takes place as soon as it's rolled, i.e. selected units make a maneuver avoidance roll, then the unit that rolled a Stun is rerolled. So because of when Stun is resolved, an army could never lose the Stun result due to the unit being Pathed away.

Quote:
How about this for the correct order of operations:
(1) Roll the army.
(2) Reroll all Instant SAIs. If additional Instant SAIs are rolled, then continue to reroll all Instant SAIs until there are no more Instant SAIs showing.
(3) If desired, apply Flashfires now. Any unit rerolled by Flashfire loses ALL of its previous roll results. A unit that has finalized any of its results cannot be rerolled by a Flashfire.
(4) Resolve the effects of Instant SAIs (Stun and Summon Dragon).
(5) Your opponent resolves their Delayed SAIs if applicable.
(6) Resolve your Special/Unique SAIs. During this step, if you cast additional Flashfires on this army then immediately go to step 3 after the Cantrip is resolved.
(7) Apply unit modifiers.
(8 ) Apply army modifiers.
(9) Apply Late SAIs.


Two problems with the above, is that #4 happens in the middle of step 2, and second part of #6 can lead to rerolling the unit that cast the Cantrip. I've got a different idea on when to apply the Flashfire that solves all these problems, see below.

Quote:
Perhaps we should also edit Flashfire to say that you cannot reroll a die whose results you've used?


That would be a good idea. We should also edit the description so instead of "original result", in should say "last result rolled". Then it would be clear you could reroll a die that rolled multiple Rends and ended with missile, and try and get more Rends without losing the previous ones. We should also add some text that says that a Flashfire can be used at any time before the roll of the unit is finalized, but not afterward.

Quote:
Additional question:
If my army has two Flashfires on it, can I choose to use both Flashfires on the same unit (if I don't like the results of the first reroll) or must I choose two different units to apply Flashfire's effect?


If we go with some text that says Flashfire has to be applied (or not) before the roll of all units is final, then it follows that a unit can be rolled multiple times, up to the number of Flashfires cast on the army.

So proposed new wording for Flashfire:

Target any army. Until the beginning of your next turn, any one unit in the target army with non-final results, may be rolled again during any non-maneuver roll. Selected units ignore their last roll and apply the new roll instead. Multiple castings increase the effect or target another army.

Also, note the change in target. This way you could cast Flashfire on another player's army. Not sure why you would want to, but this is more in-line with the original spell, and I can't find any reason to restrict this to only your own armies.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 2:24 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
#4 happens in the middle of step 2,

Well, I thought that's what you were getting at in the last two posts. No problem eliminating step 4 and combining it with step 2.

Quote:
second part of #6 can lead to rerolling the unit that cast the Cantrip.

No it won't. Reread step 3. The last sentence states that you can't reroll a unit that has finalized any of its results. In any event, if Flashfire is changed to what you propose, then it would be a non-issue.

Quote:
instead of "original result", it should say "last result rolled"

Then how about:
Target any army. Until the beginning of your next turn, during any non-maneuver roll, any one unit in the target army whose last roll result has not been finalized may be rolled again. The selected unit ignores its last roll result and applies the new roll result instead. Multiple castings increase the effect or target another army.

Am I correct in assuming that all rolls are final when you get to step 7 (applying unit modifiers)?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:27 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Target any army. Until the beginning of your next turn, any one unit in the target army with non-final results, may be rolled again during any non-maneuver roll. Selected units ignore their last roll and apply the new roll instead. Multiple castings increase the effect or target another army.

Also, note the change in target. This way you could cast Flashfire on another player's army. Not sure why you would want to, but this is more in-line with the original spell, and I can't find any reason to restrict this to only your own armies.


By allowing you to target any army, in a multi-player game you could help out a teammate or just another player who's going after "the big threat" by giving them extra rolls. You might do this if your army is severely depleted and more or less out of the game, or just out of spite. Twisted Evil
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