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DEEPBLUEB2
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 1:01 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Double SAI:

Rules:
Monsters must have 2 SAIs the same...
twice.

Let's look the the Umber Hulk for example.

Two Confuse SAIs and Two Smites

Rares must have 2 SAIs the same...

So and Eagle Rider has 2 faces that have Fly.
Mammoth Rider has 2 faces that have Trample...
(I suppose you could use the Wyvren Rider...but the really should be the same.

Here's how to play...

choose your dice...
then roll...

You are rolling for SAIs or IDs.

only the double SAIs count.

OK so let's say you roll two UMBER HULKS and a Eagle rider.

Results...
one confuse
melee
melee

so keep the confuse and reroll the other 2 dice...

smite
melee

keep the smite

reroll the eagle rider

ID

you win.

(ADD MORE DICE FOR MORE OF A CHALLENGE)
-----------------------

This game helps player get used to the results of the dice,
similar to having played the army,
and knowing what the dice can or cannot do.

I made this game up to show how using a Double SAI monster...
you may get the results you are looking for more often than you think...likewise...
the double sai rares can be quite handy.


here's a few that qualify...

Gryphon*
Harpies*
Troll
Leopard rider
Eagle Rider
Oak Lord

Gargoyle
Roc
Umber Hulk
Mammoth rider
War Driver

Swamp Giant

*3 fly sai faces and another 2 face sai
(these 3/2 monsters are great for this game)

Note:
as you may of noticed...these are also many of the dice players use in tournaments. Wink

Crocosaur
Swamp Beast

Phoenix
Fireshadow

Minor Death

Lion

the list goes on.... Laughing
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Oyvind
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:16 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

cliffwiggs wrote:
Jim Rayborn wrote:

It's a 50% chance to roll a maneuver on each die...


So the odds of NOT rolling atleast one maneuver are ... 12.5%

so you would 'on average' be able to roll 8 times before you failed.


Not exactly. That would assume that the maneuver results will usually come earlier than the other results, which really doesn't make sense. Yeah, AFTER eight rolls, you'd on average only miss once, but it is as likely that it happened on the first roll, as that it happened on the "last" roll.

1st roll: 12.5 % chance of failing
2nd roll (which means you didn't fail on your first attempt): 12.5 %
3rd roll (which means you didn't fail on your first two rolls): 12.5 %
etc. ...

The pattern is you have a 12.5 % chance of failing on every separate roll.

This means that:
- Failing on the first roll happens 12.5 % of the times you play the game.
- Failing on the second roll (which you only get to throw in 87.5 % of your attempts at this game) will then happen (.125*.875) in 10.9 % of your games. This means that AFTER two rolls, you will have failed in 23.4 % of the times you play.
- 3rd roll: (.125*.766) 9.6 %
AFTER three rolls: 33 %
- 4th roll: (.125*.670) 8.4 %
AFTER four rolls: 41.4 %
- 5th roll: (.125*.586) 7.3 %
AFTER five rolls: 48.7 %
- 6th roll: (.125*.513) 6.4 %
AFTER six rolls: 55.1 %

So, after six rolls, it's more likely that you've failed than that you're still going strong, but only marginally, as you can see (55.1 % vs. 44.9 %).

Therefore, on average, you would be able to roll six times before you fail. I hope this made sense.
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1,275 Dragon Diceā„¢ have found their way into my collection, one of which is now officially discontinued. These are also the dice that I want at the moment. I'll happily trade some promos/originals for their reprint versions. If you're looking for some of these, willing to trade reprints for them, contact me for a list!
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:30 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

1) The forum just made a collective gasp that you confronted Cliff on a statistics question. ok, maybe it was just me.

2) That is a 6 year old post. So I've completely lost the context or how I calculated it. It may have been during a 'close enough' phase I was feeling that day because I was being lazy.

3) It was from 9 in the morning. So it would've been before my morning coffee, so I will blame the lack of caffeine. Alternately I did put "on average" in quotes indicating it was a fuzzy number.

4) You are completely correct. These days I tend to validate the theory empirically via a quick program.
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Oyvind
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:07 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

cliffwiggs wrote:
1) The forum just made a collective gasp that you confronted Cliff on a statistics question. ok, maybe it was just me.

2) That is a 6 year old post. So I've completely lost the context or how I calculated it. It may have been during a 'close enough' phase I was feeling that day because I was being lazy.

3) It was from 9 in the morning. So it would've been before my morning coffee, so I will blame the lack of caffeine. Alternately I did put "on average" in quotes indicating it was a fuzzy number.

4) You are completely correct. These days I tend to validate the theory empirically via a quick program.


Hahah! I'm terribly sorry! Think about it for a minute, a lowly "rookie" trying to correct a guru! I'm a statistician, and seeing your "lazy" (your own word) approximation kind of hurt my eyes. Shocked

As you can see, I'm totally new to this website (and thanks for all your replies to my other posts), but I used to play Dragon Diceā„¢ from the start up until the Magestorm expansion. After that, I lost all my DD gaming buddies (the hobby started to become too expensive for most, which had the silver lining in that I got a lot of their dice rather cheap), and I had to resort to InterPlay's game featuring the four basic races, that never expanded into the "promised" Amazons. I really do miss that game, but my current computers (one stationary and one laptop) aren't able to run the program.

Chuck helped me out filling out my physical dice collection (and I probably helped his wallet somewhat, as I didn't have many interesting dice to offer in return) over the last couple of years, and I'm determined to now revive the game in my household, partly thanks to my three kids.

When I play games with others, it's usually with family oriented games and playing with friends of the family. I occassionally play what my fiancée calls "nerdy" (aka. GREAT) board games with one of my brothers, and I play a lot of roleplaying games with a couple of my other brothers. They're all grown-ups, and none of them are too keen on delving into an 80-page rulebook learning to play a totally unfamiliar game. So, I'm basically "stuck" with playing "new" games with my three sons, but thankfully, they're very interested in games in general, and now that I think I have a decent collection of DD, they'll get some heavy doses going forward. Smile

I never meant to ridicule you, and I think (from the light mood of your reply) that you've already "forgiven" me. But I'm still sorry... Smile Cheers!
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1,275 Dragon Diceā„¢ have found their way into my collection, one of which is now officially discontinued. These are also the dice that I want at the moment. I'll happily trade some promos/originals for their reprint versions. If you're looking for some of these, willing to trade reprints for them, contact me for a list!
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:19 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

The old computer game was bad bad bad with broken rules and dumb UI, but have you tried using something like DosBox to run it? I can't imagine why it wouldn't work. DosBox will run the original warcraft and that was from the same time period.

Math is only my second major. So I tend to be inexact sometimes. As a software developer that's why I tend towards programs to test empirically a few thousand times.

Thanks for keeping me honest.

I am very easy going, no worries.
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Oyvind
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:48 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

cliffwiggs wrote:
The old computer game was bad bad bad with broken rules and dumb UI, but have you tried using something like DosBox to run it? I can't imagine why it wouldn't work. DosBox will run the original warcraft and that was from the same time period.

Math is only my second major. So I tend to be inexact sometimes. As a software developer that's why I tend towards programs to test empirically a few thousand times.

Thanks for keeping me honest.

I am very easy going, no worries.


I totally agree, the computer game was terrible, but it still supplies me with fond memories of Dragon Diceā„¢. For that alone, I do miss it. And when I occassionally revisit games of that era, it's not neccessarily for fantastic game experiences. Laughing

I've got lots of other games that won't run either (including other "fantastic" games like the Formula 1 Manager 2, which is an even newer game). I'm not that good with computer software, so I guess someone like you would be able to make it work easily.

I've never even heard of DosBox, which probably tells more about me than about DosBox. I'll see what I can find out about it, as I wouldn't mind another trip down memory lane... Cool

I'm not sure I would've dared posting my correction, had I known you were a math major! Way to hang a "colleague" out to dry... Wink I hereby apologize in advance for all eventual corrections I may spew out in the future! But statistics suggest it might not happen again! And we both know that stats never lie (I'm not saying anything about applying stats, only the stats themselves). Very Happy
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1,275 Dragon Diceā„¢ have found their way into my collection, one of which is now officially discontinued. These are also the dice that I want at the moment. I'll happily trade some promos/originals for their reprint versions. If you're looking for some of these, willing to trade reprints for them, contact me for a list!
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:54 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

bwhaha.

I'm constantly telling people IRL that they can't just reuse data for other purposes. They don't understand. Ask the question, collect the data, answer the question, throw the data away. don't reuse it to answer a different question.

I'm also very prone to making mistakes or answering questions based on rules from several years ago (or rules that were considered but never published).

btw - my primary major was computer science, so that is my love. I only got the second major because there was a flaw in the course catalog and I abused it (so they corrected it after granting it to me)
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Oyvind
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:10 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

cliffwiggs wrote:
bwhaha.

I'm constantly telling people IRL that they can't just reuse data for other purposes. They don't understand. Ask the question, collect the data, answer the question, throw the data away. don't reuse it to answer a different question.

I'm also very prone to making mistakes or answering questions based on rules from several years ago (or rules that were considered but never published).

btw - my primary major was computer science, so that is my love. I only got the second major because there was a flaw in the course catalog and I abused it (so they corrected it after granting it to me)


Hahah! Nice one! That's something to have on one's resume! "They changed their policies post CW, that would be me!".

Most people don't understand stats. I don't get why, but I'm slowly coming to this, kind of sad, conclusion (about time, me being 40 years old and all). Not saying anything bad about "most people", I guess we're just constructed differently. But it's nice to "meet" someone who knows what I'm talking about, and your real life experiences sounds eerily familiar. Confused
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1,275 Dragon Diceā„¢ have found their way into my collection, one of which is now officially discontinued. These are also the dice that I want at the moment. I'll happily trade some promos/originals for their reprint versions. If you're looking for some of these, willing to trade reprints for them, contact me for a list!
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:18 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oyvind wrote:

40 years old
...
your real life experiences sounds eerily familiar. Confused


That is something else we have in common then.
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Oyvind
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:32 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, as you so nicely put it (earlier in this thread):

cliffwiggs wrote:
someone has to exist at the edge of the probability curve.


Smile
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1,275 Dragon Diceā„¢ have found their way into my collection, one of which is now officially discontinued. These are also the dice that I want at the moment. I'll happily trade some promos/originals for their reprint versions. If you're looking for some of these, willing to trade reprints for them, contact me for a list!
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:13 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oyvind wrote:
Well, as you so nicely put it (earlier in this thread):

cliffwiggs wrote:
someone has to exist at the edge of the probability curve.


Smile


If I recall correctly my daughter (at the time) was about 30% for height and below 5% for weight (based on the standard growth charts). My pediatrician was worried about her, so that is something I also said to him. Just because she is the way the she is, doesn't mean something is wrong.

Now she is 90% for height and 45% for weight. Still very skinny for any standard (Especially an american standard).
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Oyvind
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:16 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

cliffwiggs wrote:
Oyvind wrote:
Well, as you so nicely put it (earlier in this thread):

cliffwiggs wrote:
someone has to exist at the edge of the probability curve.


Smile


If I recall correctly my daughter (at the time) was about 30% for height and below 5% for weight (based on the standard growth charts). My pediatrician was worried about her, so that is something I also said to him. Just because she is the way the she is, doesn't mean something is wrong.

Now she is 90% for height and 45% for weight. Still very skinny for any standard (Especially an american standard).


So true! I hope she's doing fine, and that her smaller size doesn't hamper her too much in everyday life. I'm pretty sure she'll beat whatever odds they say she'll face.

One of my sons is also on the smaller side, a bit too small to be considered "normal" (both height and weight), but he has no issues with it. In fact, he thinks it's kind of cool that he and his best mate (who's half-Japanese) are the smallest kids in his class. He says things like "we're almost like hobbits! Isn't that cool, dad?".

Cheers! Smile
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1,275 Dragon Diceā„¢ have found their way into my collection, one of which is now officially discontinued. These are also the dice that I want at the moment. I'll happily trade some promos/originals for their reprint versions. If you're looking for some of these, willing to trade reprints for them, contact me for a list!
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DEEPBLUEB2
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 10:21 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It's a 50% chance to roll a maneuver on each die...


You guys are missing the whole point...

it is about challenging the odds.

A simple game of attempting to beat the odds and logging your streak.


These quick games can also be used as an army building tool.

I shall post this concept.
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DEEPBLUEB2
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 10:25 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

SURVIVOR:

Army building acid test


Simply declare an action...
like magic, or save...
for example


Grab a handful O dice

If you produce the result... you are in. (keep those dice for next round)

Those that don't are cut.


play until a winner is crowned, or as I do sometimes
I find a tough crowd (ones that keep rolling the result)
and use that as a build.


So If I wanted to I can even alternate....

Magic/Save Survivor for example

So first produce a magic roll...
then you must produce a save roll
then a magic roll

-----------------
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 10:27 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

DEEPBLUEB2 wrote:
Quote:
It's a 50% chance to roll a maneuver on each die...


You guys are missing the whole point...

it is about challenging the odds.



Sorry, two statisticians are the wrong audience for that type of game :-p
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DEEPBLUEB2
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 10:59 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Sorry, two statisticians are the wrong audience for that type of game :-p


The game in question is only one of many quick games.

perhaps that particular game...
that idea of quick games is to test the dice...

Challenging the stats, or maybe discovering the odds is part of quick games..
its both a learning tool and a game.
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Oyvind
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 2:05 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

DEEPBLUEB2 wrote:
Quote:
Sorry, two statisticians are the wrong audience for that type of game :-p


The game in question is only one of many quick games.

perhaps that particular game...
that idea of quick games is to test the dice...

Challenging the stats, or maybe discovering the odds is part of quick games..
its both a learning tool and a game.


Hi, DEEPBLUEB2.

With all due respect, what you're proposing is not a game, IMHO (it goes for a lot of your ideas here). Not that the ideas are bad, they're just not games.

I agree that these exercises are good for getting used to the dice, and getting to know them is both informative and fun. You've even been very creative in ways to accomplish this. So kudos for that.

Most of your suggestions are basically monitored RNGs. No input on the part of the "player", other than to choose (in advance) which RNG you'll test.

Statistics can give you all the answers to these tests, but I agree that first-hand experience can make things easier to remember, especially because the tests are very visual.

I'm sorry, but you don't beat the odds, when you manage to roll at least one maneuver result 76 straight times. The dice do...
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1,275 Dragon Diceā„¢ have found their way into my collection, one of which is now officially discontinued. These are also the dice that I want at the moment. I'll happily trade some promos/originals for their reprint versions. If you're looking for some of these, willing to trade reprints for them, contact me for a list!
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DEEPBLUEB2
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 8:41 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok the Dice win...

anyways...yes they are games...

look at the card game war...
quite simple

and many of Steve Jackson's games...of which he uses dice,
are quite simple.

So this is why we play Dragon Diceā„¢,
in order to play complex strategy.

even tic tack toe is a game which has been proven that you can only draw cats ultimately.

Thanks you the input.

Quick games is how I show my friends the dice,
in event they show interest in playing under more complex rules,
they perhaps they are ready to play Dragon Diceā„¢.
Most people say:
There are too many rules,
and too complicated.

Quick games are minimal strategy...
roll the dice for fun and watch what happens...
yes the dice win.
Razz
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Oyvind
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:56 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

DEEPBLUEB2 wrote:
Ok the Dice win...

anyways...yes they are games...

look at the card game war...
quite simple

and many of Steve Jackson's games...of which he uses dice,
are quite simple.

So this is why we play Dragon Diceā„¢™,
in order to play complex strategy.

even tic tack toe is a game which has been proven that you can only draw cats ultimately.

Thanks you the input.

Quick games is how I show my friends the dice,
in event they show interest in playing under more complex rules,
they perhaps they are ready to play Dragon Diceā„¢™.
Most people say:
There are too many rules,
and too complicated.

Quick games are minimal strategy...
roll the dice for fun and watch what happens...
yes the dice win.
Razz


If they manage to get more people into the game, then I'm all for them! 😀
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1,275 Dragon Diceā„¢ have found their way into my collection, one of which is now officially discontinued. These are also the dice that I want at the moment. I'll happily trade some promos/originals for their reprint versions. If you're looking for some of these, willing to trade reprints for them, contact me for a list!
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 7:00 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oyvind wrote:

If they manage to get more people into the game, then I'm all for them! 😀


Agreed! Oynind and I look at the world the same way, but the majority of people don't. So if they can use a quick game to help them learn what a unit is capable of and typically provides, then it is a good thing.
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