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Flashfire question

 
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Deeghter
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:14 pm GMT    Post subject: Flashfire question Reply with quote

Flashfire on my army.
Can I ignore an SAI and roll that unit again?
Or MUST an SAI be finalized (hence: no re-roll)
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chuckpint
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:30 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can re-roll any die that has not had it's results finalized. If it rolls an SAI and you use it (say a Cantrip), then it can't be re-rolled. Otherwise, you can roll it again.
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Deeghter
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:53 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Allright, thank you, Chuck! Very Happy
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:53 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuckpint wrote:
You can re-roll any die that has not had it's results finalized. If it rolls an SAI and you use it (say a Cantrip), then it can't be re-rolled. Otherwise, you can roll it again.


The key is the last sentance of the spell.

Quote:
Note: this takes affect
at the same time as other rerolling effects (i.e. “Instant” SAIs or group monster IDs).


I don't think there is anything that comes before 'Instant' except for maybe 'delayed' from a previous roll...

So you can choose to ignore a Monster ID and just reroll (and we will all laught at you). make sense?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:05 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cliff's correct to a point. If Flashfire is already cast on the army before the roll, then he's right. However, if unit rolls a Cantrip, and then cast Flashfire, the spell takes affect right away. It's possible to have used other SAIs before the Flashfire exists, not the least of which is the Cantrip that was used to cast it.
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Deeghter
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:09 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

cliffwiggs wrote:


So you can choose to ignore a Monster ID and just reroll (and we will all laught at you). make sense?


Makes perfect sense, Cliff!
The way I've been playing DD lately, EVERYBODY's laughing at me!!

I guess, your suggestion is even more effective when rolling a group monster ID??? Mr. Green
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:15 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuckpint wrote:
Cliff's correct to a point. If Flashfire is already cast on the army before the roll, then he's right. However, if unit rolls a Cantrip, and then cast Flashfire, the spell takes affect right away. It's possible to have used other SAIs before the Flashfire exists, not the least of which is the Cantrip that was used to cast it.
thats the definition of finallized. I assumed he already knew that.
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DEEPBLUEB2
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:02 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can Flashfire be used during Dispel?

Can Flashfire be used during a Tame Dragon attempt?
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piMaster
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 6:21 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

No because Flashfire targets the army and those two are individual rolls, not army rolls.
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chuckpint
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 6:46 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

My first thought was no. But then I looked into this. Here's the Flashfire spell:
Flashfire wrote:
Target any army. Until the beginning of your next turn, during any non-maneuver roll, any one unit in the target army whose last roll result has not been finalized may be rolled again. The selected unit ignores its last roll result and applies the new roll result instead. Multiple castings increase the effect or target another army. Note: this takes affect at the same time as other rerolling effects (i.e. “Instant” SAIs or group monster IDs).

Key phrase here, is "during any non-maneuver roll". So what does that mean? It's defined here:
SAI Application wrote:
During a non-maneuver roll: The SAI is applied when an army or unit is rolling for a specific result during any action, save roll or non-maneuver avoidance roll to prevent an effect from occurring.

So the next question is what exactly are the Dispel and Tame Dragon rolls? They are both Conditional SAIs:
SAI Resolution wrote:
Conditional: The effect of these SAIs are dependent on the resolution of an action or event upon the component containing the Conditional SAI, its army and/or terrain that component is located.
And the Glossary adds:
Glossary wrote:
Conditional Resolution: The effect of these SAIs are resolved if and only if some condition is met. The component possessing this SAI is rolled and if the Conditional SAI comes up then the effect is negated, otherwise nothing happens and turn sequence continues.


So what does all this mean? First of all a non-maneuver roll defines when the Flashfire is applicable. As you can see, save rolls and non-maneuver avoidance rolls, are two of the conditions. Dispel is rolled when magic targets the unit, army, or terrain. That would fall under the save roll (if damage is inflicted) or non-maneuver avoidance roll (for many other spells). However, if the spell does not directly harm the targets, for example, Transmute Rock to Mud, then there is no save or avoidance roll, and while the Dispel can be rolled for, the unit with Dispel cannot be rerolled in that case.

Tame Dragon, has a similar problem. It's condition is a Dragon Attack, but it cannot be thought of as a save or avoidance roll (Not within the strict definitions of both rolls). So no reroll.

So the Dispel roll is a very mixed bag, and it's way too complex. I'd propose a small change to the Flashfire spell to close this loophole:

"during any army non-maneuver roll"

Reading thru the old notes on this spell, it was clear the intent was for this spell to only be applicable during an army roll. The fact that the target is an army, was supposed to be enough. However, some of the other wording in the rules has made that murky. This simple change should absolutely clear that up.
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:25 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuckpint wrote:
I'd propose a small change to the Flashfire spell to close this loophole:

"during any army non-maneuver roll"


Agreed
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