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New molds and the unearthly
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Hal 9001
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:54 am GMT    Post subject: New molds and the unearthly Reply with quote

I was wondering what are the unearthly, I saw them in a listing in chuckpints faqs as unreleased TSR stuff.

Also if these were to be a new race what would it take to get it out in production? Mainly how much does a new mold cost and does that mean one unique mold is one unique type of die? or what?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:58 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since it wasn't released there isn't a lot of official information about the unearthly.

From what I've seen of the design notes (no I can't share them), I don't think many people would've played with them. It was an interesting concept, but any game mechanic which has a chance of hurting you usually isn't worth the risk...

that being said, several people have ideas to fix them, but unearthly would require... 2-5 new molds (one mold per die shape) and isn't currently a profitable idea...

If we can build up the player base a bit... maybe someday. I still think its a cool idea.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:02 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

BTW - there was also an unreleased set called Champions. This was basically five new 4pt six sided unit for every race. They were badly over powered with some sick SAI's and 5 or 6 pt cantrips.

SFR has played with redesigning these, but again the cost per mold just to get 5 new dice is something that would quickly put us out of business.

I've even looked at making them injected like the eldarim, but a two color injection doesn't look anything like a two color compressed die. I don't think players would want these if they didn't look the same as the rest of the race.
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Hal 9001
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:05 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

By building up player base, you mean people testing the dice?

On the molds again, so the dx is one mold or the dx and size?, also wondering about the id icon and such.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:08 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I mean people purchasing product. i.e. cash flow. we can't sink a bunch of money into something and have it just sit there.

on the molds, it is the dx and the size. for example: treefolk is 4 molds.
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Hal 9001
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:25 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

What do you mean by injection and compressed?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:29 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sure we've discussed this before, anyone who wants to post that other forum thread feel free.

basically its just two different manufacturing processes by two different companies. It provides two different looks to the dice. Compare anything in a starter to something like a DragonLord or Dragon Slayer. If you have the dice in front of you its easy to see the difference.
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thudthwacker
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:09 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

cliffwiggs wrote:
I mean people purchasing product. i.e. cash flow. we can't sink a bunch of money into something and have it just sit there.


I realize I'm re-animating a year-old thread; apologies if necromancy is frowned upon in these parts. And, also, I imagine you guys hear this a lot, but still: if you think the Unearthly is a good (or potentially good) idea for a race, have you considered doing a Kickstarter for it? Obviously, you can't afford to take huge risks with your bank account -- but a well-publicized Kickstarter means you don't have to.

As I don't have the vaguest notion with what costs are involved in any part of your development/production process, it's possible that even as a Kickstarter it wouldn't be practical.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:30 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

thudthwacker wrote:
it's possible that even as a Kickstarter it wouldn't be practical.
I think that someone needs to do research and bring to the big meeting at Gencon to discuss. Smile
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stormywaters
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:33 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I second the motion of using Kickstarter to create new stuff. It means that those of us who play and love to spend can donate money to get it going, and you guys don't have to risk any money to get new molds made.

Heck, let's start a Kickstarter to fix Magi/Inferno rarity. Razz
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:13 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

stormywaters wrote:
Heck, let's start a Kickstarter to fix Magi/Inferno rarity. Razz





I couldn't agree more Very Happy
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chuckpint
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:31 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

The big problem with Unearthly is not money, nor can it be solved with money. We simply have a name, and some very very loose (nearly non-existent) concepts. So unless we can come with some concept on which to base Unearthly, it's no more viable than any other completely new race. There have been a number of threads about Unearthly (honestly I don't know where on the forum, it's possible that most are in hidden forums).

As for fixing Magi/Inferno rarity, that's mostly a problem with not pissing off collectors of the current dice. Easiest way would be another color of ink, but that would be the fourth color of ink for those. And we'd have to find a color that is readable but not easily confused for one of the current three colors. It's also not anything new, which seems to be a requirement for a Kickstarter.
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:51 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuckpint wrote:

As for fixing Magi/Inferno rarity, that's mostly a problem with not pissing off collectors of the current dice. Easiest way would be another color of ink, but that would be the fourth color of ink for those. And we'd have to find a color that is readable but not easily confused for one of the current three colors.


A question to those die hard collectors (you know who I'm talking to). As an alternative to another ink color, what would you think about a single new variation on the rare magic unit? i.e. rotate the ID 180.

Quote:

It's also not anything new, which seems to be a requirement for a Kickstarter.
As you say, there have been lots of ideas. but none/few were ever dug into due to the costs. As I say, lets discuss in 4 weeks.

4 weeks! ARGH! too much to do!
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shoesan
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:02 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

cliffwiggs wrote:


A question to those die hard collectors (you know who I'm talking to). As an alternative to another ink color, what would you think about a single new variation on the rare magic unit? i.e. rotate the ID 180.



I would not be in favor of something like that. The reality is, there are only 5 dice whose rarity is significant enough for discussion. There are tons of dice in the game. None of these rare dice are needed to consistently field winning Dragon Diceā„¢ armies. The odds to pull these dice are long, but, it IS a collectible dice game at the end of the day. Tough-find collectibles are part of the deal. These dice have also somewhat defined part of Dragon Diceā„¢ history/culture. Then on top of that, even a new, cheaper variation will negatively affect collector value. Maybe not so much for the TSR UF, which will always have a special place in Dragon Diceā„¢... but certainly for the others.

A friend of mine that I just got into the game recently pulled an Ormyrr out of a starter. I traded him armies of both Swamp Stalkers and Amazons for it. He was happy. I was happy. Its cool that there is that "lottery ticket" element to some of the dice.

As long as SFR never goes the way of an ultra-rare seeding in packs again, I think Dragon Diceā„¢ should live with the ones that currently exist.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:22 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

shoesan wrote:

As long as SFR never goes the way of an ultra-rare seeding in packs again, I think Dragon Diceā„¢™ should live with the ones that currently exist.


Just to clarify. the specific change we are discussing affects two dice in the game. The Magi and the Inferno. There are some (many?) who would consider having the 3pt magic unit a 'must'. In all other races there is no rarity amoung 3pt units. They are all flat.

Monsters are out of scope in my mind and would remain unchanged.

Does that change your opinion at all?
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:32 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm... perhaps. I am still not really a fan of it, but I could definitely see the pros of that coming a lot closer to outweighing the cons. I'd like to talk to you at GenCon about it more I guess.

I am thinking this would mean creating two new molds... one for each of those dice? That sounds like an expensive fix.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:36 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

shoesan wrote:
Hmm... perhaps. I am still not really a fan of it, but I could definitely see the pros of that coming a lot closer to outweighing the cons. I'd like to talk to you at GenCon about it more I guess.

I am thinking this would mean creating two new molds... one for each of those dice? That sounds like an expensive fix.


Yes, it would create new molds for both races. It would, however, make me (and probably many others) willing to shell out a good deal more money on dice. I want a set of Scalders and Frostwings, but as it stands, I've stopped buying them. The odds of finding the dice I need are so low compared to finding dice I don't need, so I've just given up. I got rid of all my Frostwings for the same reason.

It's not as though your current Infero or Magi would be any less rare, it would just mean the rest of us could get some to use. Your original prints and reprints are still going to be exceedingly rare, and maybe someday I can pick some up. For now, I'd like to actually play those dice though.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:56 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand that. But two molds are expensive. And back to the original post topic... if Unearthly were developed in a way that they could be made with two molds (maybe one set of dice for evil races (same icons, produced in different color combos like the hybrid dragons)/one set for non-evil races), I would MUCH rather have that new set of dice than a fix for existing dice.

If you stopped collecting Frostwings and Scalders because of the rarity problem, that doesn't necessarily mean less dice sales. I bought the most in those same two races trying to complete sets, and I am sure I am not alone. I don't know anything about actual sales numbers for these dice, but I would not guess that Scalders and Frostwings are lagging in sales. I could be wrong. But if finances are tight (which I am assuming they are), I just don't see how it makes sense from a business perspective to buy two molds to fix the distribution of two dice, especially on the heels of getting those fifth monsters (which, once again, I want to give a big "THANK YOU" to SFR for finding a way to do!).
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:58 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, what we are talking about is a new mold to replace the mold for the rare size dice for both Scalders and Frostwings. It would be a flat rarity for all 5 dice in each race. So it would affect not only the Magi and Inferno, but all the rares in those two races. That's why I suggested a different ink color, it would affect all 5.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:29 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

So i have two points I guess that make me reluctant to want to see this change.

1)Regardless of various inkings etc., the value of those two dice (Magi and Inferno), even the originals, will undoubtedly drop. Magi are twice as easy to pull than Frost Ogres, yet they are more valuable. That can only be attributed to their usefulness in play.... its really the only distinguishing factor. If you suddenly put a playable alternative out there that is easy to come by, I just don't see how older Magi don't come down in value to about half of what an Ogre is. Scarcity and playability together give the Magi and Inferno their values. Take one away and the value has to drop.

Generally speaking, the versions and variations have not proven to have the ability to garner any extra value (excepting the TSR UF). If you look at the myriad variations of Dragonlords/Masters/Hunters/Slayers out there... they do not carry much of a premium from one to the other, even though some of them appear to be harder to get than others. Although it would be "nice" to have an original Magi or Inferno, there just aren't enough people who care about that kind of thing to prevent the values of those dice from falling, if there is a cheaper alternative available. They are valuable because they are playable AND scarce.

1) What are we giving up as a community for this fix? As I said in my last post, if we could have Unearthly for the cost of two molds versus fixing these two dice, its not even a question to me. I would want Unearthly.

I am just using Unearthly as an example though. Maybe that is something that is not even being considered. But SOMETHING is probably being considered. What new things could SFR do with the money instead of this fix? I would not want to say "Yeah, lets fix the rarity issue" when I don't know what is being given up... cause I probably would want the new thing over this fix in just about any case.
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