SFR, Inc. Forum Index SFR, Inc.
Forums that relate to SFR products
 
 Watched TopicsWatched Topics   FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Magic Discussion
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
 
This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    SFR, Inc. Forum Index -> 3.01 and later Rules Discussion - Locked
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
stormywaters
rare



Joined: 22 May 2011
Posts: 1403

usa.gif
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:26 pm GMT    Post subject: Magic Discussion Reply with quote

Branching from the Spirit Furnace thread, what magic changes would you guys like to see in Rules version 3.0? Here are a few changes I'd make:

Transmute Rock to Mud is too good. I'd either make it an additive effect, or make it take place after doubling (which wouldn't work as written). Subtracting makes it hugely more powerful than say Wind Walk.

I'd like to see fewer colors with no offensive capabilities.

Wilding is a little too good, I think. The fact that it applies to melee AND saves, and is chosen AFTER rolls are made makes it incredibly potent.
Back to top
 View user's profile Send private message
piMaster
rare
Stockholder



Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3235
Location: Rockford, IL

usa.gif
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:50 am GMT    Post subject: Re: Magic Discussion Reply with quote

stormywaters wrote:
Transmute Rock to Mud is too good. I'd either make it an additive effect, or make it take place after doubling (which wouldn't work as written). Subtracting makes it hugely more powerful than say Wind Walk.

Actually, Wind Walk is more powerful because it is an additive modifier. But TRtM is too good. Let's look at the cost/effect ratios of all these types of spells:
SpellCostModifiercost : effectMultiple castings
allowed?
Decay
Evil Eye
2-11 : 0.5yes
Palsy3-11 : 0.3yes
TRtM5-61 : 1.2yes
Higher Ground5-51 : 1no
Restless Dead
Wind Walk
Water Walking
4+41 : 1yes
Wind Wall
Wall of Ice
3+31 : 1no
Stoneskin
Watery Double
2+11 : 0.5yes

For the spells that are subtraction modifiers, most of them have poor ratios (one point of magic gets you half a point of effect or less). Higher ground gives one point of effect per magic point, but can only be cast once. Transmute is the only spell on that list that gives you more than one point of effect per magic point spent, and you can cast it multiple times. Definately overpowered compared to the rest.

I'd say change it to "multiple castings target multiple armies" and/or increase its cost to six or more (or decrease its effect, which would be the same net result).

Quote:
I'd like to see fewer colors with no offensive capabilities.

Looking thru the basic spells, only black and blue have offensive spells (aside from summoning dragons). However, after factoring in racial spells, only the Dwarves and Treefolk (and Amazons at half the terrains) don't have offensive spells. I'm not sure that is really a problem.

Quote:
Wilding is a little too good, I think. The fact that it applies to melee AND saves, and is chosen AFTER rolls are made makes it incredibly potent.

Indeed. Burning Hands and Flaming Armor cost the same (individually), but have to target a specific unit and only double one type of result. Sure, they last longer than wilding, but being able to choose the unit after you roll is quite powerful.
Back to top
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
piMaster
rare
Stockholder



Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3235
Location: Rockford, IL

usa.gif
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:14 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd also like to see Ashes to Ashes brought up to 3 points.
Back to top
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
cliffwiggs
SFR Treasurer
Chief Wheedler
SDA - Rules NitPicker



Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 10794
Location: Cumming, GA - USA

usa.gif
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:53 am GMT    Post subject: Re: Magic Discussion Reply with quote

piMaster wrote:

Looking thru the basic spells, only black and blue have offensive spells (aside from summoning dragons).


remember that this case was originally designed in the early/mid 90's. I would say that at the least there was a "magic" influence.

i.e. that each type of magic has a 'theme'. i.e. offensive magic, defensive magic, etc...

The only place that falls apart is when you get certain combinations of colors. for example: Treefolk had no basic resurrection spell, so they had to be given a racial spell to do the same. Scalders still have no bury spell. etc...

We have to keep a 'theme' between the colors of magic, otherwise why have colors at all?
_________________
Multiplayer Champion Gencon11/Battlefest Champion(tied) GenCon10/World Champion GenCon07/National Champion Origins05/Intermediate Champion GenCon02/Novice Champion Origins99
Back to top
 View user's profile Send private message
Skawilly
rare
SDA - Rules NitPicker



Joined: 21 Mar 2011
Posts: 1322
Location: Seattle, WA

usa.gif
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:53 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I concur Mr. Wiggs. Very much so.
This is why I must say that keeping black a cheaper bury is crucial.

The other thing I would like to state is that Wind Walk and the like are 100% effective. TrtM is easily ignored with SAI movement. One create fireminions at an 8th face and your Flash Flood has failed. Pathing over a common on a TrtM hopes and your opponent rolls a rend and its over. 15 TrtM's cannot stop this but 15 Wind Walks is boo-koo movement.
_________________
Will
"There is more philosophy in a bottle of wine than all the books in all the world" - Some random wine cap -
Back to top
 View user's profile Send private message
stormywaters
rare



Joined: 22 May 2011
Posts: 1403

usa.gif
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:42 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skawilly wrote:
15 Wind Walks is boo-koo movement.


Beaucoup. Mr. Green

That's exactly the point. Wind Walks (et al) are always effective. TRtM is negated by a simple SAI. Which is why I think SAIs that generate normal results should be subject to modification. It makes thinks unnecessarily complex to make them "special". They're already special by virtue of the fact that they produce multiple different results.

As to magic colors and whatnot, I'm fine with keeping colors defensive and whatnot, but I really think Treefolk need one damage-boost or enemy-weakening spell. Stone Hands? Increases damage or something like Burning Hands, but different? How about Rupture Stone? Targets a unit that rolls a maneuver or dies? Stone Shards? Reduces an army's saves?

Give us one racial spell that does something useful like that. Something to help in the war of attrition.

Edit: Leaving doesn't count either. It's very expensive for what it does, and requires at least two separate armies to even work. Open Grave, by contrast, is cheaper and can be cast with only one army at a terrain.


Last edited by stormywaters on Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:48 pm GMT; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
 View user's profile Send private message
Skawilly
rare
SDA - Rules NitPicker



Joined: 21 Mar 2011
Posts: 1322
Location: Seattle, WA

usa.gif
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:45 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Beaucoup. Mr. Green


Son of a.... Now I look like a jerk hahahah!
_________________
Will
"There is more philosophy in a bottle of wine than all the books in all the world" - Some random wine cap -
Back to top
 View user's profile Send private message
AgentofChange
dragonfoal



Joined: 08 Nov 2011
Posts: 22
Location: United States

usa.gif
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:21 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a radical thought. Why assume that we want to keep the spells we have?

A complete redraw of the spell lists up to and including getting rid of old spells, adding new spells, adjusting effects,adjusting cost, and moving spells from one color to another could all be done without necessarily changing how they are cast. (I'm not saying casting shouldn't be addressed just that it's a different topic)

I mean I was going through my old collections 1st edition rules and I noticed something striking, in fifteen years the basic spell list has only changed in very minor ways. Specifically the addition of 2 black spells, a casting cost increase on everything, and minor wording changes.

When I thought about it the original magic was likely designed with 2 things is mind: 1. The "magic era" trope of colors equating to elemental effects and that those effects should fit with the theme. 2. That magic bolstered and filled gaps in the armies that used those colors.

I feel both of those criteria are very very valid and should be adhered in a redraw but consider that the field has changed in a decade and a half.

Originally only black, red and yellow were shared by two races.

Now it looks like this-

Black: Goblins, Lava elves, Frostwings, Undead, Swamp Stalkers
Red: Dwarves, Lava Elves, Scalder, FireWalkers
Yellow: Goblins, Dwarves, Feral, Treefolk,
Green: Coral Elves, Treefolk, Scalder, Swamp Stalkers
Blue: Coral Elves, Feral, Firewalkers, Frostwings
Amazons get'em all

All five colors are shared by at least 5 races with different icon distributions and abilities. This is a far different matrix from which to determine what magic should do than what was originally there.

My proposal is thus:

A generic non-color specific list that handles things like Resurrection, Summoning, perhaps burying (if everyone should have it as they do now) etc.
Mainly because no race should be forced to use a racial spell to do something everyone else can already do, it's just not interesting.

A revisited list of of spells for each color consisting of 5ish spells that address the play styles and needs of the races that share the color as well as the thematic flavor of that color. I don't think that the colors should necessarily have abilities that are available to the other colors, making each color inform a unique magical approach and playstyle.

A revisited set of 2 Racial spells for each race (amazons and Undead would have to have some exception made) that allow that race to do something flavorful to their theme and if possible unique to only them. (i Point to Necromantic wave as my favorite example of what i consider a 'good' racial spell).

The end result of all this is that by stripping spells down and rebuilding the lists and racial spells from the ground up we can better balance the game as it stands now rather than patch it from what it was. In addition to balance we also can avoid an environment where things that are unique and interesting in some races are wasted on mundanities available to everyone else in others. Thirdly we can really put strong flavor and play style diversity into the colors and by extension the combinations that I don't feel truly exists right now.
Back to top
 View user's profile Send private message
eggsaladsandwich
uncommon



Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 519
Location: West Linn, OR.

usa.gif
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:15 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a thought:
why not make magic castiing dependant on the Terrain, IE your army can cast only spells of the color of the terrain they are at. example: a coral elf army at a highlands can only cast red or gold spells. Doubling of magic points, if not just dropped, would still hapen only if your racial color matched the terrain. Since this would give all races access to all spells (terrain dependant) you could eliminate "Racial Spells" entirely and just have 5 basic spell lists. Give each race a couple of "Racial advantages" for flavor instead of the "racial spells".
This is with the intent of making magic more terrain dependant as traditionally thats where the "power" is drawn from anyway and it makes sense that mages would study magic of all colors. Cool
_________________
"Another days useless energy spent." Moody Blues
Back to top
 View user's profile Send private message
chuckpint
White Dragon
SFR President
Site Admin



Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 9165
Location: Evanston, IL

usa.gif
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:11 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

The "traditionally" you are referring to, is for Magic not for magic. Fantasy literature has the concept of "earth" mages, "water" mages, etc. They are specialized in that type of magic. They also have more power when they are "connected" to their element.

So Dragon Diceâ„¢ uses that concept. The only difference is that the races have two types of magic they are specialized in, not just one.
_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Diceâ„¢ sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Diceâ„¢, 20,000 Daemon Diceâ„¢, and others (too many to count).
Back to top
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
stormywaters
rare



Joined: 22 May 2011
Posts: 1403

usa.gif
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:47 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amazons:

If we're talking about shrinking down spell lists, I have a suggestion. Instead of giving then a list of racial spells in different colors, how about this one racial spell:

Conjure Element: Cost 6 (any color)

Target any terrain not already under the effects of Conjure Element and choose a color (element). Add that color (element) to that terrain until that terrain's face changes.

They'd have the flexibility of gaining a third color, easier than other races at least. They could be masters of versatility, due to their inherent lack of elemental ties. As it stands, their spells aren't very good; I'd rather play Feral mages at a flatland, or Dwarf mages at a highland, etc.

What do you guys think? It's priced above Call Water, Deadlands, etc. but can be accessed from any color of magic (though Amazon-only).
Back to top
 View user's profile Send private message
ddicerc
rare
Public Relations Director
Esteemed Author



Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 3238
Location: East Brunswick, NJ, USA

stkitts_nevis.gif
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:53 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I'm not fond of the spell listed, I think Stormy has a point. Perhaps Amazons could be given fewer and better spells, but make them ivory so they can be cast on any terrain. That would allow them a small list of spells that aren't terrain dependent.
_________________
Steve "DDice" Braun
The Diceman's Gaming Pages: http://ddicerc.weebly.com
2014-2015 U.S. National Champion
(Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse...)
Back to top
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
stormywaters
rare



Joined: 22 May 2011
Posts: 1403

usa.gif
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:36 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

ddicerc wrote:
While I'm not fond of the spell listed, I think Stormy has a point. Perhaps Amazons could be given fewer and better spells, but make them ivory so they can be cast on any terrain. That would allow them a small list of spells that aren't terrain dependent.


Do you mind if I ask why you don't like the spell I proposed?

The way I see it, humans are generally referred to (in fantasy settings) as being versatile and adaptable, not superior in any aspect. Dungeons and Dragons, for example, gave them extra generic abilities instead of focused abilities.

So instead of giving them really powerful racial spells, we could give them something other races don't get easily: three colors of magic. It makes them versatile, able to tap into any colors they want, instead of giving them specific abilities to focus their magic.

It was just a thought.
Back to top
 View user's profile Send private message
AgentofChange
dragonfoal



Joined: 08 Nov 2011
Posts: 22
Location: United States

usa.gif
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:47 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

stormywaters wrote:
Do you mind if I ask why you don't like the spell I proposed?

The way I see it, humans are generally referred to (in fantasy settings) as being versatile and adaptable, not superior in any aspect. Dungeons and Dragons, for example, gave them extra generic abilities instead of focused abilities.


I agree with him largely for the reason that there is no impetus or requirement to stick to any one race when building an army.

In a game where you can easily have 4 or in fact all of the colors of magic available to you without issue. A spell to give access to magic would only really benefit Amazon only armies and even then would be diluted by being able to go to a different terrain.

I can see some good uses for it but I also far more occasions where there would be little or no impetus to use it. If you want to include something into a game you should really provide a reason to want to use it when comp[ared with other options. This is slightly off topic but, the biggest sin of game design is to create something that when held up to available options is either a no brainer to take/use or something no one who wanted to win would take/use.

I'm not saying that your suggestion for the Amazon spell strictly falls into those categories but it does seem quite weak in light of the the greater game. Though I think the idea of less but useful racial spells that aren't color based for the Amazons is a good idea.
Back to top
 View user's profile Send private message
stormywaters
rare



Joined: 22 May 2011
Posts: 1403

usa.gif
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:59 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

AgentofChange wrote:
I agree with him largely for the reason that there is no impetus or requirement to stick to any one race when building an army.

In a game where you can easily have 4 or in fact all of the colors of magic available to you without issue. A spell to give access to magic would only really benefit Amazon only armies and even then would be diluted by being able to go to a different terrain.

I can see some good uses for it but I also far more occasions where there would be little or no impetus to use it. If you want to include something into a game you should really provide a reason to want to use it when comp[ared with other options. This is slightly off topic but, the biggest sin of game design is to create something that when held up to available options is either a no brainer to take/use or something no one who wanted to win would take/use.

I'm not saying that your suggestion for the Amazon spell strictly falls into those categories but it does seem quite weak in light of the the greater game. Though I think the idea of less but useful racial spells that aren't color based for the Amazons is a good idea.


Well, my concern is: Why take Amazon mages at all? If I want any two-color combination, I can just take that race's mages, and I don't have to use a Standing Stones to match.

If my Feral want access to red, I need a different terrain Standing Stones (like a Highland or Wasteland), and I can't double all my colors; I can double one of the three available at best. Treefolk can cast Call Water, so they can double two of the three at best. Amazons could have three colors, and be able to double all three.

I mean I'm fine with them having a spell list that's worth using, as well. As it stands, their racial spells are pretty bland and not worth playing. I was just trying to stick with the "smaller spell list" idea that has been kicked around.
Back to top
 View user's profile Send private message
eggsaladsandwich
uncommon



Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 519
Location: West Linn, OR.

usa.gif
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:10 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amazon new racial ability:
WITCHCRAFT---Magic items, artifacts and medallions function normally and may be rolled in reserves area...this gives amazons the ability to cast any color magic from reserves with items only. Twisted Evil
_________________
"Another days useless energy spent." Moody Blues
Back to top
 View user's profile Send private message
stormywaters
rare



Joined: 22 May 2011
Posts: 1403

usa.gif
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:11 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

eggsaladsandwich wrote:
Amazon new racial ability:
WITCHCRAFT---Magic items, artifacts and medallions function normally and may be rolled in reserves area...this gives amazons the ability to cast any color magic from reserves with items only. Twisted Evil


Haha! Interesting, but I'll just take a 1-point Amazon for that ability, and build the rest of my army as something else. Mr. Green
Back to top
 View user's profile Send private message
eggsaladsandwich
uncommon



Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 519
Location: West Linn, OR.

usa.gif
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:54 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

and when that 1 pt amazon gets lightning bolted, you had better of picked the right color magic item for the rest of your army or its done buried... Twisted Evil
_________________
"Another days useless energy spent." Moody Blues
Back to top
 View user's profile Send private message
DialFforFunky
rare



Joined: 11 May 2010
Posts: 1992
Location: Groningen

netherlands.gif
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:15 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

eggsaladsandwich wrote:
Amazon new racial ability:
WITCHCRAFT---Magic items, artifacts and medallions function normally and may be rolled in reserves area...this gives amazons the ability to cast any color magic from reserves with items only. Twisted Evil


Definitely not a good idea. This will create armies that do nothing other than hide in reserves and cast dragons (possibly with dragon staff) and offensive spells all day long. That would be very boring to play against. If you limit them to non-offensive spells, the ability would be pretty useless.


F
_________________
717
Back to top
 View user's profile Send private message
MikeD
common
Stockholder



Joined: 05 Feb 2005
Posts: 303
Location: Near Baltimore, MD

usa.gif
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:26 am GMT    Post subject: Colorless spells Anyone Reply with quote

How many times have you had multi-racial armies that, when rolling for magic, ended up with 1 point of magic of their color "left over" after all spells for that color had been decided and announced. Meanwhile, the other race(s) in you army also had 1 point of magic "left over" . As a thought, why not have a limited number of 2 )mabe 3) point colorless spells that are defensive in nature?
_________________
Michael DeZearn
BUY MORE DICE!
Back to top
 View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Display posts from previous:   
This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    SFR, Inc. Forum Index -> 3.01 and later Rules Discussion - Locked All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
Page 1 of 10

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group