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DEEPBLUEB2
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 2:54 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The point remains that MAGIC doubling should go, whether it applies to IDs or non-ID magic results.


I failed to mention another factor...
that is the dragonstaff summon dragon SAI...
if you summon a dragon...cool...reroll...summon another one...
and again if possible...
and then roll a magic icon.

So it would seem that this little gem is now way too powerful.

So what are you going to do?

eliminate the reroll?
Bah!!! if it comes down to this...
dragon staff don't reroll...
dragonlords can't summon a dragon?
what is esfah coming to?

Again...did you think this all through???????



it's the rules spiral I warned about...
dial down this...and then you dial down that...
soon you dial down the fun as well.


So a 4 points of magic die will result in 2 dragons and 4 magic...


Nobody mentioned dragon staffs can't reroll...
until now...
which is why I like to forsee the future before it's too late.

Sure lobby to eliminate doubling of magic...
then the staff goes...
I say put it all on the table...

instead of...well...we will adjust that later.

As I see it...
now the dragonstaff is too powerful...
IF you eliminate doubling of magic...
or I should say...
I hear the voice of reason telling me that it will be the next complaint...after doubling has been decided to be eliminated...
rules spiral...

So why is it that doubling magic is so terrible?

I don't buy the magic is too strong concept...

As it is...
A simple thought like the dragonstaff shows why magic doubling may be needed...in some form...
or else the staff gets the ax next...where does it end?
rules spiral effect.
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stormywaters
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 3:08 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim Rayborn wrote:
I failed to mention another factor...
that is the dragonstaff summon dragon SAI...
if you summon a dragon...cool...reroll...summon another one...
and again if possible...
and then roll a magic icon.

So it would seem that this little gem is now way too powerful.

So what are you going to do?

eliminate the reroll?
Bah!!! if it comes down to this...
dragon staff don't reroll...
dragonlords can't summon a dragon?
what is esfah coming to?

Again...did you think this all through???????


Yes, I did. Rerolls should go. The staff can still summon a dragon. Otherwise, roll for the required number of magic like you should.

Quote:
it's the rules spiral I warned about...
dial down this...and then you dial down that...
soon you dial down the fun as well.


Big letters don't make a valid point.

Quote:
So a 4 points of magic die will result in 2 dragons and 4 magic...

Nobody mentioned dragon staffs can't reroll...
until now...
which is why I like to forsee the future before it's too late.


Rerolling has been covered. Why should a 4-point item get too summon two dragons and generate 4 magic in one shot? In what way is that balanced?

Quote:
Sure lobby to eliminate doubling of magic...
then the staff goes...
I say put it all on the table...

instead of...well...we will adjust that later.

As I see it...
now the dragonstaff is too powerful...
IF you eliminate doubling of magic...
or I should say...
I hear the voice of reason telling me that it will be the next complaint...after doubling has been decided to be eliminated...
rules spiral...


You're not pointing out anything new, just rehashing your old arguments that have been refuted.

Quote:
So why is it that doubling magic is so terrible?

I don't buy the magic is too strong concept...


Then you are alone. There exists a 50% limit because it's too good. I've addressed, in detail, why magic doubling is bad. You've not made a valid reason it should stay, except because you want it.

Quote:
As it is...
A simple thought like the dragonstaff shows why magic doubling may be needed...in some form...
or else the staff gets the ax next...where does it end?
rules spiral effect.


Wrong. Reductio ad absurdum. Magic should be fixed, including the dragonstaff.

Cite a logical argument against that, beyond "because I think so". You've *still* not done that.

And yes, we've thought about rules spiral.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:18 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
it's the rules spiral I warned about...


I think it is expected that if you change magic doubling that you would have to change certain aspects of the game that revolve around magic. Thus yes the items can be rewritten, the spells can be rewritten, the way terrains work can be rewritten. That is the nice thing about the pieces being dice, you can change the the properties of them if need be. So if Magic Doubling were completely removed than you can assign new abilities to the Magic Items that it would affect, terrains to matter differently then they do now. Basically change a good portion of the game if need be. That is the beauty of it.
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eggsaladsandwich
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:51 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Still think you guys are overthinking this. Simplest solution is to make only magic units and components able to double their IDs only. Any component with a migic producing icon is conscidered to be a magic unit/component.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:14 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

egg wrote:
Simplest solution is to make only magic units and components able to double their IDs only. Any component with a migic producing icon is conscidered to be a magic unit/component.


This is the thinking I have as well...if change is inevitable.

If rend remains... so too must the summon dragon SAI.

let's take a look...

rend=summon dragon

smite=sneak attack

they are not exactly equal..nothing is in Dragon Diceā„¢...
but it shows that we are keeping a infinite melee generator...
so it make sense not to touch the dragon staff...
in fact it's not infinite...
it's based on how many dragons are brought to the table.

IF you claim the dragon staff is too powerful,
I believe it is based on a paperwork analysis...
I've played many a game where I was on magic the whole game,
and my dragon staff NEVER rolled a Summon dragon SAI...it did roll magic however.

==============


Please refrain from picking apart every word I type in an attempt to discredit me...
I have plenty of credentials.


===============

A word on Paperwork analysis.

I actually met Lester Smith at GenCon.

I wanted to ask him some questions about the design of Dragon Diceā„¢...
as I was wondering things like...
is the leopard rider designed with some sort of mathematical formula...
where somewhere in the game there is a counter balance?

So I asked him quite simply...

How did you design Dragon Diceā„¢?
Was it all made on the computer?

Lester said...
Yes initially it's all designed on the computer,
but then it's time to get out the stickers and see if the whole thing actually works.

He signed a bow of Chaos...and I thanked him.


Ok next my analogies.

The Dimmer Switch theory:

This is a dangerous concept...
as electrical components all run on regulated electricity...

I knew this guy who thought his Kid was playing video games too much,
so he put a dimmer switch on the video game to reduce the amount of electricity the kid was using.

It worked at first...
but eventually it fried the system.

So the analogy for Dragon Diceā„¢ is as follows.

I found an old update for Dragon Diceā„¢.
It decreed:
The cost of each spell has been increased by one point.

So this went into effect...
thus the regulated magic (electricity) was increased.
So the game operated under this voltage so to speak...

as time went on the voltage was increased specific spells like mire...
and lightning bolt...
dancing lights...
but not globally...
eventually the game's power was tuned.

Now to directly attach a dimmer switch(the elimination of doubling magic) in an attempt to dial down the magic,
it may fry the game.

So spells will need to be adjusted.

We should also note that I feel Cantrip's should allow races to cast key spells...
so increasing spells like Necromantic Wave...to 5...
would be out of cantrip range...
thus LE mages could not fight in melee the same way...
or for that matter a traditional LE battle...
with Burning hands (4 point cantrip) thrusted into play.

So by just slapping on a dimmer switch,
all the fine tuning will have to be adjusted...before you flip the switch.

Which brings me to analogy 2:

The foundation has been poured:

Sure create the foundation that magic cannot be doubled...
but don't decree it...
we will need testing, testing and revising.
I do not want to change the dragon staff...
it was not broken!!!!
By saying the rules are now cemented,
before adjusting things will crack the very foundation of the games mechanics.
If this happens...you'll have to start over.
Cart before the horse.

==================

So back to Egg's comment...

mages Should be allowed to double magic...
as they have training.

Now we can't disclude a non mage from casting magic on it's Id without affecting the game's mechanics...
it states that an Id roll can be anything needed.

So doubling Ids should be reserved for the trained magician...
to make it simple...all mages, or components that have magic...
this would include artifacts.

Since doubling can occur on mages only...
besides the Master's SFR logo...
their Ids will be showing...so it won't be such a strain to know it's a mage...
but the frostwings and Scalders are hard to tell...

anyways...
mage Ids double only...
because of their training...
and because we should respect element/aspect in refection to magic.

===============


final word:

Dancing lights?
Grove
FW anti magic
ash storm

I mean really...
I've played many battlefest games where magic just could not be cast...
even with doubling Ids on non mages.

So I think the double edge sword would be...

1> stop non mages from doubling

2. reward only mages (ID)

========

The unfinished dangling participle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dangling_modifier
would be the death magic...
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stormywaters
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:22 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

eggsaladsandwich wrote:
Still think you guys are overthinking this. Simplest solution is to make only magic units and components able to double their IDs only. Any component with a migic producing icon is conscidered to be a magic unit/component.


Still nobody has given a well-reasoned answer as to why magic doubling should exist, in any form, other than "because I personally like it". As to why it shouldn't, I've answered (bookkeeping, power level, confusion, etc)


Jim Rayborn wrote:
This is the thinking I have as well...if change is inevitable.

If rend remains... so too must the summon dragon SAI.


Don't worry, I'm trying my hardest to make sure Rend goes (with its rerolling) as well. So this is a vacuous argument.

Quote:
IF you claim the dragon staff is too powerful,
I believe it is based on a paperwork analysis...
I've played many a game where I was on magic the whole game,
and my dragon staff NEVER rolled a Summon dragon SAI...it did roll magic however.


Personal testimony doesn't prove anything. It's got a 20% (that's one in five) chance of rolling Summon Dragon. That's definitely common enough, and doesn't need a reroll on top of that.

Quote:
Please refrain from picking apart every word I type in an attempt to discredit me...
I have plenty of credentials.


It has nothing to do with credentials. I don't think you're a bad person, but I won't let you make unsubstantiated claims and use faulty logic to defend a position. If you want to defend magic doubling, get to the point and give concrete, non-emotional reasons why it should stay, in any form at all.

Quote:
A word on Paperwork analysis.

I actually met Lester Smith at GenCon.

I wanted to ask him some questions about the design of Dragon Diceā„¢™...
as I was wondering things like...
is the leopard rider designed with some sort of mathematical formula...
where somewhere in the game there is a counter balance?

So I asked him quite simply...

How did you design Dragon Diceā„¢™?
Was it all made on the computer?

Lester said...
Yes initially it's all designed on the computer,
but then it's time to get out the stickers and see if the whole thing actually works.

He signed a bow of Chaos...and I thanked him.


I don't know what this even means, or how it pertains to the discussion. Paperwork analysis and real-world analysis bear out the same answers:

1. Magic doubling adds confusion
2. Magic doubling takes too much time
3. Magic doubling makes a small number of mages generate a much larger number of results

Quote:
Ok next my analogies.

The Dimmer Switch theory:

This is a dangerous concept...
as electrical components all run on regulated electricity...

I knew this guy who thought his Kid was playing video games too much,
so he put a dimmer switch on the video game to reduce the amount of electricity the kid was using.

It worked at first...
but eventually it fried the system.

So the analogy for Dragon Diceā„¢™ is as follows.

I found an old update for Dragon Diceā„¢™.
It decreed:
The cost of each spell has been increased by one point.

So this went into effect...
thus the regulated magic (electricity) was increased.
So the game operated under this voltage so to speak...

as time went on the voltage was increased specific spells like mire...
and lightning bolt...
dancing lights...
but not globally...
eventually the game's power was tuned.

Now to directly attach a dimmer switch(the elimination of doubling magic) in an attempt to dial down the magic,
it may fry the game.

So spells will need to be adjusted.


Yes, they will. This is another argument that means nothing. The game is undergoing some large changes. One of those is to bring magic down to a level where it's not overpowered to the point of limiting mages. Nobody, nobody is saying "Just remove magic doubling, then we're done making any changes to magic."

Quote:
We should also note that I feel Cantrip's should allow races to cast key spells...
so increasing spells like Necromantic Wave...to 5...
would be out of cantrip range...
thus LE mages could not fight in melee the same way...
or for that matter a traditional LE battle...
with Burning hands (4 point cantrip) thrusted into play.


These are all things that will be addressed. Don't worry, nobody has overlooked this aspect either. We're all considering the different ramifications of changing magic.

Quote:
So by just slapping on a dimmer switch,
all the fine tuning will have to be adjusted...before you flip the switch.

Which brings me to analogy 2:

The foundation has been poured:

Sure create the foundation that magic cannot be doubled...
but don't decree it...
we will need testing, testing and revising.
I do not want to change the dragon staff...
it was not broken!!!!
By saying the rules are now cemented,
before adjusting things will crack the very foundation of the games mechanics.
If this happens...you'll have to start over.
Cart before the horse.


More poetic license, not grounded in actual data. Of course any changes will be playtested. We are also not advocating "Let's just change a bunch of things and call it a day."

Quote:
So back to Egg's comment...

mages Should be allowed to double magic...
as they have training.


Why should doubling still exist? We don't double heavy melee results "because they have training". We don't double missile results "because they have training". Magic is more powerful than melee and missile, but we still don't double them.

I'll iterate: Magic doubling exists to give terrain colors a purpose. We have other ways of reaching that end, so magic doubling would no longer have a purpose at all.

Quote:
Now we can't disclude a non mage from casting magic on it's Id without affecting the game's mechanics...
it states that an Id roll can be anything needed.

So doubling Ids should be reserved for the trained magician...
to make it simple...all mages, or components that have magic...
this would include artifacts.

Since doubling can occur on mages only...
besides the Master's SFR logo...
their Ids will be showing...so it won't be such a strain to know it's a mage...
but the frostwings and Scalders are hard to tell...

anyways...
mage Ids double only...
because of their training...


No. This doesn't follow anywhere else in the game, you're still just defending something because you personally like it.

Quote:
and because we should respect element/aspect in refection to magic.


Again, there are other ways to "respect element/aspect in refection to magic". You're choosing not to see them, or to ignore them.

Quote:
final word:

Dancing lights?
Grove
FW anti magic
ash storm

I mean really...
I've played many battlefest games where magic just could not be cast...
even with doubling Ids on non mages.

So I think the double edge sword would be...

1> stop non mages from doubling

2. reward only mages (ID)


Still waiting for a reasoned response that doesn't lie behind "because I like it", "because that's how it is" or "but they're mages! Come on!"
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DEEPBLUEB2
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:46 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I won't let you make unsubstantiated claims and use faulty logic to defend a position.


Like I said before...
please stop this.
Right or wrong...
it's your opinion if it's faulty... yet you are clearly stating that it's faulty.

Likewise..unsubstantiated?
another opinion.

Quote:
Still waiting for a reasoned response that doesn't lie behind "because I like it", "because that's how it is" or "but they're mages! Come on!"


those are your words...
I've explained my thinking.

This is a team effort.
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stormywaters
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:00 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim Rayborn wrote:

Like I said before...
please stop this.
Right or wrong...
it's your opinion if it's faulty... yet you are clearly stating that it's faulty.

Likewise..unsubstantiated?
another opinion.


No, your arguments for keeping magic doubling always amount to "but I really like it you guys!" That's not a good reason, that's preference.

Reasons to get rid of magic doubling are that it takes too much time, it's clunky, it grants more magic per health than it should (based on magic power level), and no other effect in the game grants those bonuses, even though magic is more powerful.

Oh, and lastly, because it only exists to make terrain colors matter, which can be done through other means.

Quote:
those are your words...
I've explained my thinking.

This is a team effort.


You've not answered the question.

Why, apart from poetic language and personal desire, should magic doubling exist?

All I want it a simple, logical answer. One or two sentences will suffice. Just as I have demonstrated, logically and not emotionally, why it should not exist, I want you to demonstrate why it should.

I've posed it several times, and every time you've not been able to answer. You've pointed out some things that will change when magic doubling is removed, but those are already under consideration anyway.
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DEEPBLUEB2
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:22 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Why, apart from poetic language and personal desire, should magic doubling exist?


I have answered this question multiple times...
it's just that maybe you are dismissing my thoughts.

No personal desire.
No poetics.

Double is a counter balance in a game which is melee dominant.
Since mages can't fight hand to hand that well...
they use the land ...which is being fought over...
to siphon power.
The power they posses alone is not strong enough.
Cliff has said that in a huge game of Dragon Diceā„¢...
whoever goes first will win...
why?
because the game is designed to END.

So since the game is designed where saves are not as strong as the blade...
spells are available to help balance this inherit property of the game.

So in a smaller game...
this dominating force is less prevalent,
but it's still there.

Mages for the most part have to run away...
use magic to repel the army.
I've played many games where a simple dancing lights is all that is needed to tone down most magic armies.

So doubling of magic is the games way of allowing mages to compete with melee.

Ok...a magic versus magic battle...turtle style can get quite drawn out...
so the dragons become to solution.
Like I mentioned above...
keep with the mages can double only idea.
test it

I'm neither for or against anything,
however,
as my dimmer switch analogy suggests...
simply dialing down magic for the sake of diminishing game play (clock) will effect the entire realm of the game.

I say play test the mage only concept (only dice with can double IDs)...it's seems to be the general consensus.

Nothing wrong with tenacity.
Cool
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:39 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't read this entire topic because it is a bit too long for me and the tone at which is being held is not always to my liking. Still, and much to my surprise, I didn't see this awnser to Stormy's question:

Aren't the races composed of certain elements? The dwarves-section in the DCM mentions something along the lines of them being earth imbued with fiery temper. The goblins where created by death corrupting the earth. This link, given that DD plays in a fantasy setting, seems more than enough to suggest that certain races have an affinity with certain elements.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:00 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim Rayborn wrote:
Quote:
Why, apart from poetic language and personal desire, should magic doubling exist?


.....Double is a counter balance in a game which is melee dominant.
Since mages can't fight hand to hand that well...
they use the land ...which is being fought over...
to siphon power.
The power they posses alone is not strong enough.
Cliff has said that in a huge game of Dragon Diceā„¢™...
whoever goes first will win...
why?
because the game is designed to END.

So since the game is designed where saves are not as strong as the blade...
spells are available to help balance this inherit property of the game.

So in a smaller game...
this dominating force is less prevalent,
but it's still there.

Mages for the most part have to run away...
use magic to repel the army.
I've played many games where a simple dancing lights is all that is needed to tone down most magic armies.

So doubling of magic is the games way of allowing mages to compete with melee.... Cool


I think thats a pretty good explanation eh Stormy? Razz
This game is just going to have to keep some clunkiness to keep it from being reduced to Yahtzee. Routing was clunky but great fun..then it was eliminated, Charging was clunky but great fun...then it was eliminated. Its a dice game people, random results is what its all about. If you cant handle a couple of losses because your opponent (who you believe to be inferior for some reason) gets a lucky roll or 2...I suggest you are not playing the right game, go back to chess... Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:13 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

eggsaladsandwich wrote:
Jim Rayborn wrote:
Quote:
Why, apart from poetic language and personal desire, should magic doubling exist?


.....Double is a counter balance in a game which is melee dominant.
Since mages can't fight hand to hand that well...
they use the land ...which is being fought over...
to siphon power.
The power they posses alone is not strong enough.
Cliff has said that in a huge game of Dragon Diceā„¢™™...
whoever goes first will win...
why?
because the game is designed to END.

So since the game is designed where saves are not as strong as the blade...
spells are available to help balance this inherit property of the game.

So in a smaller game...
this dominating force is less prevalent,
but it's still there.

Mages for the most part have to run away...
use magic to repel the army.
I've played many games where a simple dancing lights is all that is needed to tone down most magic armies.

So doubling of magic is the games way of allowing mages to compete with melee.... Cool


I think thats a pretty good explanation eh Stormy? Razz


Nope. Melee is the weakest of the action types, as it requires you to be at the same terrain, and allows for a counterattack.

Magic, conversely, can take place at any distance, doesn't allow counterattacks, and can do things melee cannot (resurrection, path, dancing lights, etc).

Doubling simply lets you play fewer mages and get the same results.

Mages can already compete with melee, by either:

1. Fighting from a distance
2. Granting themselves saves and picking off units (Lightning Strike, Finger of Death, etc)

Magic is already too powerful, as indicated by the 50% limit. To remove that limit, and simplify army-building as much as possible, doubling has to go.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:22 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

stormywaters wrote:
Nope. Melee is the weakest of the action types, as it requires you to be at the same terrain, and allows for a counterattack.

Magic, conversely, can take place at any distance, doesn't allow counterattacks, and can do things melee cannot (resurrection, path, dancing lights, etc).

Doubling simply lets you play fewer mages and get the same results.

Mages can already compete with melee, by either:

1. Fighting from a distance
2. Granting themselves saves and picking off units (Lightning Strike, Finger of Death, etc)

Magic is already too powerful, as indicated by the 50% limit. To remove that limit, and simplify army-building as much as possible, doubling has to go.


Sure magic is strong if you can keep your army at a magic allowing face. Melee overpowers it because: 1. There are more melee facets on the terrains than any others. 2. to win the game you will almost always have to maneuver thru melee facets.
That being said, I think both "No Doubling" and "Mage only doubling" should be playtested with the current spell set to see how they compare. My guess is that with "No Doubling" , almost all the spells will need to come down in cost and that would open up a whole other can of worms...
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:31 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

eggsaladsandwich wrote:
stormywaters wrote:
Nope. Melee is the weakest of the action types, as it requires you to be at the same terrain, and allows for a counterattack.

Magic, conversely, can take place at any distance, doesn't allow counterattacks, and can do things melee cannot (resurrection, path, dancing lights, etc).

Doubling simply lets you play fewer mages and get the same results.

Mages can already compete with melee, by either:

1. Fighting from a distance
2. Granting themselves saves and picking off units (Lightning Strike, Finger of Death, etc)

Magic is already too powerful, as indicated by the 50% limit. To remove that limit, and simplify army-building as much as possible, doubling has to go.


Sure magic is strong if you can keep your army at a magic allowing face. Melee overpowers it because: 1. There are more melee facets on the terrains than any others. 2. to win the game you will almost always have to maneuver thru melee facets.
That being said, I think both "No Doubling" and "Mage only doubling" should be playtested with the current spell set to see how they compare. My guess is that with "No Doubling" , almost all the spells will need to come down in cost and that would open up a whole other can of worms...


1. Magic can be cast from reserves
2. You can win by destroying your opponent, or by using magic from reserves to grant saves/maneuvers to non-reserves army

Spells will have to be completely changed, as it will also open up the restriction on mages. So the current spell set will probably not be the same at all.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:21 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

stormywaters wrote:

1. Magic can be cast from reserves
2. You can win by destroying your opponent, or by using magic from reserves to grant saves/maneuvers to non-reserves army

Spells will have to be completely changed, as it will also open up the restriction on mages. So the current spell set will probably not be the same at all.


You CAN also win by meleeing or missiling you opponent to death, you can also win by outmaneuvering him. What's your point? Magic should be a big part of the game, dont cut both its cajonies off. Still see nothing wrong with doubling magic components IDs only. Yes its a bit clunky..play yahtzee if you dont like depth to your games Cool . I never thought there should be a restriction on mages to begin with, they can be extremely vulnerable in huge numbers. Sure cantrips a bitch, but so is haveing most of your mages wiped out turn 1 because you put too many in and werent able to win the horde roll to go first.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:41 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

egg wrote:
Still see nothing wrong with doubling magic components IDs only.


It seems fine...
if change is inevitable.

Actually,
if you go to the roots of the game...
not only Ids were doubled,
but magic icons as well.

So the concept is to limit this to just IDs....
and just mages.

If a sunflare were to be allowed to double magic on its magic icons..
or even magic items...
they would be super charged,
as they do pretty much nothing but magic icons on their rolls.


So I think restricting mages to doubling only on Ids is dialing down the terrain advantage of magic.
Also if the 50% mages rules were still in play,
it keeps things at bay,
while still rewarding magicians for their study of magic.

This ability for magicians to harness magic from the elements of the terrain,
based on their aspect(s) is a role playing feature that fantasy gamers would expect.

Dragon Diceā„¢ is a fantasy game,
not just a war of numbers.
The elements are in constant turmoil of power struggle,
of which the characters in the game use to help gain strengths and advantages,
perhaps even use the very nature of their opponent's elements against them.

So I think a little doubling of magic keeps this type of thinking in check.
Limiting doubling to mages also emphasizes the various divisions of Dragon Diceā„¢,
which gives the game a little more depth now,
rather than gloss over the need for magicians since you can just double your non mages Ids...as you will most likely roll a few Ids in a handful of dice...
now army construction will need to reconsider abandoning the mage avenue as they won't be able to tap into the magic realm so easily.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:46 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

eggsaladsandwich wrote:
Sure cantrips a bitch, but so is haveing most of your mages wiped out turn 1 because you put too many in and werent able to win the horde roll to go first.


I'm not reading this thread, but I will comment on this. Smile
I've got a bunch of necromancers who are more than willing to stand on their own...

at 36 health with 12 necromancers, its nothing to get a single cantrip (necromantic wave) and better than average to get two (open grave).

so yes, they can be slapped first turn, but they can slap back too.

not all mages are firewalker peons. some have teeth. (or pointy swords)
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:55 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Sure cantrips a bitch, but so is haveing most of your mages wiped out turn 1 because you put too many in and werent able to win the horde roll to go first.


Ok...again I have to repeat this concept...

7 rerolls

this way melee is not so dominant.

As it is...
if 7 turns down to 6...
then it's a greater chance your mages will be forced to fight in melee...
in the beginning of the game.

I felt this was a bad idea ever since it was introduced in Dragon Diceā„¢.
It used to be terrains actually started at 7.

The game should not be defined in the first round...
so you lost the horde...you lost the game?
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:32 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim Rayborn wrote:

I felt this was a bad idea ever since it was introduced in Dragon Diceā„¢™.
It used to be terrains actually started at 7.

The game should not be defined in the first round...
so you lost the horde...you lost the game?
hopefully that is something that 3.0 will resolve.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:56 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
hopefully that is something that 3.0 will resolve.


I like piMaster's reroll 7's

I tested it and I like the results.

Sometimes it comes up 6...
sometimes magic...
sometimes missile...
so to me it makes the beginning of the game better.
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