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eggsaladsandwich
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:29 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

DialFforFunky wrote:
eggsaladsandwich wrote:
Amazon new racial ability:
WITCHCRAFT---Magic items, artifacts and medallions function normally and may be rolled in reserves area...this gives amazons the ability to cast any color magic from reserves with items only. Twisted Evil


Definitely not a good idea. This will create armies that do nothing other than hide in reserves and cast dragons (possibly with dragon staff) and offensive spells all day long. That would be very boring to play against. If you limit them to non-offensive spells, the ability would be pretty useless.


F


You still cannot cast offensive spells from the reserves, defensive spells only as always. I would argue that amazons casting flaming spears or burning hands and resurection spells from the reserves could be very handy and not useless at all. Rolling Eyes
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shoesan
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:09 pm GMT    Post subject: My 2 cents... Reply with quote

Well, not 2 cents really, but rather two suggestions, if we are actually considering drastic changes:

1. However the spell list turns out, lets weight magic so that there will no longer need to be a rule that states you can only have half of your forces be magic. I am assuming it is that way because magic is too powerful. So if we are revising/changing, then lets do it in a manner that makes it less powerful so we do not have to limit the number of mages. Though its a major change, it falls in line with what we are trying to achieve overall: less complicated rules/less rules in general/less rules exceptions. Under this format, you build a 36 point army, whatever you want. Instead of half only for magic, and monsters you have to figure out how many magic faces it has to decide how many health of magic it is (so my 4 health monser counts as 3 health for magic or whatever), and then whatever the vampire is, stuff like that... I would love to throw all of that kind of stuff out. You wanna play 36 points of Magi? Go for it! Lets remake magic to allow that to happen.

2. Make racial spells founded in lore by changing their fundamental cost. Basically, I am proposing having a smaill number of spells cost magic points from two colors. For example, there could be a spell that costs 2 blue AND 2 green. Such a spell would be as powerful as a 4 point spell. If you roll 2 points of blue AND 2 points of green, you can cast it if you want. These types of spells would replace racial spells, so in the instance of the spell I just described, it should be something that would have been a coral elf racial spell. Someone running all coral elves would have no problem casting this spell... they just need to roll 4 magic. Other racial armies would have to be mixes... a half frowtwing/half swampstalker army might be able to cast the spell as long as each race generated two magic. For the "feel" of what I am explaining, two races are able to "figure out" the "secrets" of a third races magic. The spell is generally easier to cast if your army is of the race that aligns with the two colors, but it is not impossible to case without that race in the army.

3. Ok, one more suggestion, though I only advertised 2... we have five colors of magic (red. black, gold, green. blue) and 5 main types of normal dice results (melee, missile, magic, save, maneuver). Lets align each color to really focus on one of the normal die results. So maybe green magic is all about saves, gold is all about maneuvers, etc. Its kinda like that now, but maybe more focus... so it is obvious.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:28 pm GMT    Post subject: Re: My 2 cents... Reply with quote

shoesan wrote:
Well, not 2 cents really, but rather two suggestions, if we are actually considering drastic changes:

1. However the spell list turns out, lets weight magic so that there will no longer need to be a rule that states you can only have half of your forces be magic. I am assuming it is that way because magic is too powerful. So if we are revising/changing, then lets do it in a manner that makes it less powerful so we do not have to limit the number of mages. Though its a major change, it falls in line with what we are trying to achieve overall: less complicated rules/less rules in general/less rules exceptions. Under this format, you build a 36 point army, whatever you want. Instead of half only for magic, and monsters you have to figure out how many magic faces it has to decide how many health of magic it is (so my 4 health monser counts as 3 health for magic or whatever), and then whatever the vampire is, stuff like that... I would love to throw all of that kind of stuff out. You wanna play 36 points of Magi? Go for it! Lets remake magic to allow that to happen.

2. Make racial spells founded in lore by changing their fundamental cost. Basically, I am proposing having a smaill number of spells cost magic points from two colors. For example, there could be a spell that costs 2 blue AND 2 green. Such a spell would be as powerful as a 4 point spell. If you roll 2 points of blue AND 2 points of green, you can cast it if you want. These types of spells would replace racial spells, so in the instance of the spell I just described, it should be something that would have been a coral elf racial spell. Someone running all coral elves would have no problem casting this spell... they just need to roll 4 magic. Other racial armies would have to be mixes... a half frowtwing/half swampstalker army might be able to cast the spell as long as each race generated two magic. For the "feel" of what I am explaining, two races are able to "figure out" the "secrets" of a third races magic. The spell is generally easier to cast if your army is of the race that aligns with the two colors, but it is not impossible to case without that race in the army.

3. Ok, one more suggestion, though I only advertised 2... we have five colors of magic (red. black, gold, green. blue) and 5 main types of normal dice results (melee, missile, magic, save, maneuver). Lets align each color to really focus on one of the normal die results. So maybe green magic is all about saves, gold is all about maneuvers, etc. Its kinda like that now, but maybe more focus... so it is obvious.

Shoe


Excellent post.

1. I couldn't agree more. I'd love to see that restriction lifted through aggressive balancing of magic.

2. Another cool idea. Other races could access those new spells, but with some extra work.

3. Well, green as saves works, since they've got some good ones. Gold is already the "movement" color. I think red makes sense as the melee color (fire burns things, burning hands, etc). Blue makes sense for missile (since it's air), and lines up with most races (Coral Elves have more missile faces on their natural home, Frostwings have two missile classes, Firewalkers are littered with missile icons). That leaves black and magic: Undead and Frostwing already have special magic rules, Goblins have Spirit Furnace, Lava Elves have Necromantic Wave, etc.

I'd say they could easily be changed a little to support the existing theme.
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piMaster
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:35 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

what if...

We got rid of magic doubling?
Instead, the cost or effect of some spells would depend on the terrain. For example, Wall of Ice costs 3 magic normally, but costs 2 magic if the casting army is at a watery terrain. Flash Flood normally needs 8 maneuvers to avoid, but needs 10 maneuvers if the target terrain contains the water element.

We changed the nature of basic vs racial spells?
Basic spells would be castable in all five colors and would be spells that every race should have access to (summon dragons/dragonkin, bring back dead units, etc). Each race would then have its own list of spells (some races may have the same spells (for example, coral elves and firewalkers would have lightning strike, but frostwings and feral wouldn't)). Basically the way demo games are set up.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:49 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doubling has two problems. Most units can't cast magic except with IDs. So why should they be able to double? It almost seems that it's backward. IDs should provide magic (just like they provide missile, melee, maneuvers, and saves). But why double? Why not double only real magic icons? Shouldn't be the mages that are the only ones skilled enough to double their magic?

The second problem that doubling causes is the fact that it's one of the most complex rules we have. Doubling at terrains, from dead, some races only double at certain terrains, other terrains no one can double at, it's just hard to keep track (for a new player) of what you can double, where.

So it's quite clear we have to talk about magic doubling. We could get rid of it entirely. I think we need to have something to make it worthwhile to bring terrains to complement your army. Does it have to be magic doubling? Maybe. Maybe every race has a "favored" terrain that gives it some other benefit. That sounds like a new topic of it's own.
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dburkley
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:17 am GMT    Post subject: Steamlining Magic Reply with quote

chuckpint wrote:
Doubling has two problems. Most units can't cast magic except with IDs. So why should they be able to double? It almost seems that it's backward. IDs should provide magic (just like they provide missile, melee, maneuvers, and saves). But why double? Why not double only real magic icons? Shouldn't be the mages that are the only ones skilled enough to double their magic?

Yes, that is one aspect that is inconsistent with what was probably intended. The "fantasy logic" would suggest that the ID icons of non-magicians could represent an occasional "flash of brilliance", but not to the extent of doubling the magic effect.

chuckpint wrote:
The second problem that doubling causes is the fact that it's one of the most complex rules we have. Doubling at terrains, from dead, some races only double at certain terrains, other terrains no one can double at, it's just hard to keep track (for a new player) of what you can double, where.

So it's quite clear we have to talk about magic doubling. We could get rid of it entirely. I think we need to have something to make it worthwhile to bring terrains to complement your army. Does it have to be magic doubling? Maybe. Maybe every race has a "favored" terrain that gives it some other benefit. That sounds like a new topic of it's own.

For the boardgame rules I've been developing, instead of doubling, if a magician die rolled its normal Magic icon(s) (including Cantrip, which generates normal magic during a magic roll), it added one icon at a Standing Stones.
For this discussion, I thought about applying that concept of adding one magic point to magician dice that rolled their magic icon(s) at a terrain that matched one or both colors of the magician, but that could introduce new "accounting" that might be better off avoiding in trying to determine what the totals colors of each type of magic were available when assessing spell options.
Instead, it would be simpler to add "+1 magic icon" per magician die that rolled its magic icon(s) at a terrain that match either of its colors - but then that permits a situation where Goblin magicians at a Swampland (as an example) could receive this bonus, but use it to cast black spells, so this simpler rule could have unintended effects - not unlike the current rules that allow non-magician dice to double their magic.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:35 am GMT    Post subject: Re: Steamlining Magic Reply with quote

dburkley wrote:
Instead, it would be simpler to add "+1 magic icon" per magician die that rolled its magic icon(s) at a terrain that match either of its colors

This is a no-go; it encourages the all-common army.
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eggsaladsandwich
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:38 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

My 2 cents on magic changes:
1. no more doubling: too complicated and magic is already too strong in this game.

2. Each color should have 3-4 basic spells that fit it thematically(in name) but basically do similar things ie..spark of life, breath of life, water of life ---ashes to ashes, dust to dust..etc.

3. Each color should have 2-3 spells that fit it thematically(in action type) ie..gold-stone skin, blue-wind walk, red-burning hands etc..

4. Each race should have 2-4 racial spells that thematically fit it ie..Firewalkers lightning strike, undead finger of death..etc

Add to this and special Racial/ Terrain advantages and you should be able to maintain the depth and richness of the game, both thematically and strategically, while simplifying the most complex part of it.
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DEEPBLUEB2
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:47 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Make Hybrid dragons racial.

So we don't have ivory/elemental races yet...
another discusion.

maybe amazons can cast ivory hybrids


So you can only cast a highland hybrid...red gold

from a Highland

or Dwarven magic.

Undead can cast hybrid black/ivory
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eggsaladsandwich
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:52 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim Rayborn wrote:
Make Hybrid dragons racial.

So we don't have ivory/elemental races yet...
another discusion.


So you can only cast a highland hybrid...red gold

from a Highland

or Dwarven magic.

Undead can cast hybrid black/ivory


This would lead to more single race armies and give hybrids even more power than they have right now (not good) because opposing armies would not be able to move them if they cant cast the spell because its a racial spell. Just make hybrids cost more--9 or 10.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:52 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought the option someone else (Dburkley)?) mentioned earlier would be neat: hybrids being slightly more expensive (8?), but can be summoned by a combination of their colors of magic. This way there is an absolute way in which they are harder to summon, but this slightly is balanced by a relative way in which they are easier to summon.

Keeping topics separate is hard by the way... Embarassed


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 11:39 am GMT    Post subject: Re: Colorless spells Anyone Reply with quote

MikeD wrote:
How many times have you had multi-racial armies that, when rolling for magic, ended up with 1 point of magic of their color "left over" after all spells for that color had been decided and announced. Meanwhile, the other race(s) in you army also had 1 point of magic "left over" . As a thought, why not have a limited number of 2 )mabe 3) point colorless spells that are defensive in nature?


I'm not entirely convinced that a generic ressurect spell should be colorless. I mean there are potential issues but why not have 3 points (or whatever the cost of the spell) of magic regardless of its source be enough to bring a health point back?
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 11:42 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

DialFforFunky wrote:
...This way there is an absolute way in which they are harder to summon, but this slightly is balanced by a relative way in which they are easier to summon.


F


Relatively speaking, this makes absolutely no sense Razz . If you are playing single race, they are only slightly harder to cast. If you ar playing mixed races, they are much easier to cast. If anything its a total wash. 9 pts of one color...but we are once again getting offtopis for this.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 11:53 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

eggsaladsandwich wrote:
[...] this makes absolutely no sense Razz . If you are playing single race, they are only slightly harder to cast. If you are playing mixed races, they are much easier to cast.


You didn't get it, but you probably did anyways Wink.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:49 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

piMaster wrote:
what if...

We got rid of magic doubling?
Instead, the cost or effect of some spells would depend on the terrain. For example, Wall of Ice costs 3 magic normally, but costs 2 magic if the casting army is at a watery terrain. Flash Flood normally needs 8 maneuvers to avoid, but needs 10 maneuvers if the target terrain contains the water element.


I proposed this awhile back in another thread. I think we should definitely get rid of doubling, if for no other reason than it makes a lot of bookkeeping necessary ("Okay, now how many black do I have left again?").

I also suggested (not magic related, but on the topic of terrain colors) making terrain colors apply to other things:

  • Maybe armies that match one color get an extra result (or more than one)
  • Maybe dragons that match one of the terrain's colors (or both, in the case of hybrids) are (a) cheaper; or (b) have increased potency?


Quote:
We changed the nature of basic vs racial spells?
Basic spells would be castable in all five colors and would be spells that every race should have access to (summon dragons/dragonkin, bring back dead units, etc). Each race would then have its own list of spells (some races may have the same spells (for example, coral elves and firewalkers would have lightning strike, but frostwings and feral wouldn't)). Basically the way demo games are set up.


Another good idea. The only consideration is resurrecting dead units; as it stands, gold and green can't do it (except for Treefolk in green), so mixed armies that match on those two colors can't double all their gold/green to resurrect, or if players roll numbers that don't come out in multiples of three (say rolling 5 blue and 4 red; it's 9 magic, but can only recover 2 health).

I think resurrecting should be "vanilla", really. Just however many points of whatever combination of colors can be used to resurrect. 9 points is 9 points, no matter how it's spread across colors (for resurrection, that is; not for other spells).
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:38 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

A tiny suggestion: I get the impression that green magic is supposed to be the king of defensive save-centered magic. Yet in a lot of situations it does little better than other colors, and is considered to be thw weakest kind of magic. In fact, I think the best defensive spell is actually in gold magic: the dwarven spell earthen armor.
So, I'd like to propose a tiny change in either watery double or wall of ice: allow them to be stay effective without armies being present. This allows green units to move from reserves much safer giving them a distinct edge over other colors.
(And I dislike the names of both watery double and wall of ice. but that might just be me.)


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:45 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

DialFforFunky wrote:

... making this die a bit bland, but above horrible. Would be hard to fix non-SAI-wise.
Power-rating: 4/10
SAI-fixability: 1/10

A way to fix the Sprite Swarm and other monsters:
It has already been suggested to remove the MPV-rule
shoesan wrote:
... lets weight magic so that there will no longer need to be a rule that states you can only have half of your forces be magic. I am assuming it is that way because magic is too powerful.

But if this does not work and you still may not bring more than 18H (or 18 MPV points) of mages I would simplify this rule:

• Each unit with a normal magic icon or a Cantrip counts as a mage. (Other icons (like Logo, ...) do not count.)
• Each 6-sided mage has a magic point value (MPV) equal to its health; No exceptions.
(So the rare Vampire is a 3 point mage. If you think this is not fair then Convert can be upgraded to generate 3 magic during a magic roll. So he would be a true 3-point mage.)
• Each mage-monster has a MPV of 2. Always.

Why?
The main reason is: Races are normally designed in the following way:
Each race has 5 combat types, only one of them are the mages. (The only exception are the Undeads where 2 of the 5 types are mages.)
The majority of races have exactly 1 monster which is a mage.
In a single race game you may bring 4 of each common unit, 3 of each uncommon and 2 of each rare. If you bring all 6-sided mages you are allowed to, you will have 16H of mages. If you want to use the maximum of mages (18H) there are 2H missing. Normally a race has only 1 mage monster. If this monster counts as 2MPV you can play all mages you have available in your race.
This means: For the majority of races you don't have to calculate a MPV in a single race game. Simply play all mages of that race.

This is the power of the Sprite Swarm: If you add him to your army for more magic, you don't have to replace other mages. (Ok, he's still not convincing, but currently he is even worse, because you have to replace one mage if you want to play him.)

However:
If you play a standard, 36-point, normal rules game, with 18H of mages, you would be able to use 9 of your Unseelie Faeries as your starting force. If you think there is too much magic allowed, here is another possible MPV variant:
• Each 6-sided unit has a magic point value (MPV) equal to its health; No exceptions.
• Each monster with a Cantrip has a MPV of 4. Always.
• Each monster with a normal magic icon, but without Cantrip has a MPV of 2.
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piMaster
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:00 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's wrong with the Sprite Swarm?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:38 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is nothing wrong with the Sprite Swarm. He does have his use: At least in a single race game you can add him for more magic or more missile results.
Actually CE monsters are quite good designed (except that one monster is missing.) If Entangle is changed you will find use for all of them. Still you hope to get certain monsters rather than others. This is the way it should be.
Dwarven monsters are not so good.

But what can be simplified is the way how to calculate the MPV. It would make the rules a few lines shorter.
It can be reduced to 2 rules:
• Each component with a normal magic icon or a Cantrip counts as a mage-die.
• To determine the health worth of your mages you may count 10-sided mage-dice (all of them or those without Cantrip) as if they have 2-health.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 3:35 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a suggestion: if the major problem with having no limits on magic dice is the presence of Cantrip, how about changing it so that Cantrips can't be combined? That means they could not cast any spell over 4 pts in any non-magic situation (or 3 pts for FI and AM). Would that cripple the FI and AM mages? Does it still leave a problem with Path? Could Path be increased to 5? Does it favor one color of magic too much (such as Black with FoD while Blue loses LS)? I'm still thinking through the repercussions, but I think it could be one alternative.
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