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Magic Discussion
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NMcCoy
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:45 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm good with that.
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Denimwizard
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:05 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to say i like Shosan's idea, it is quite elegant and gives a nice fantasy flavor back to the game.

One of the issues facing the idea of doubling just magic icons is that some Mages can produce more magic icons on a die than others. For instance the lave elves' necromancer has a face of 5 magic icons where as the undeads' litch only has 3. So doubling that would be 10 vs 6.

So an alternative to doubling is probably needed. May be make a die that can store magic points? A magic battery perhaps (So not stealing this from MTG REALLY) . But that is for another thread.
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stormywaters
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:15 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Denimwizard wrote:
I have to say i like Shosan's idea, it is quite elegant and gives a nice fantasy flavor back to the game.

One of the issues facing the idea of doubling just magic icons is that some Mages can produce more magic icons on a die than others. For instance the lave elves' necromancer has a face of 5 magic icons where as the undeads' litch only has 3. So doubling that would be 10 vs 6.

So an alternative to doubling is probably needed. May be make a die that can store magic points? A magic battery perhaps (So not stealing this from MTG REALLY) . But that is for another thread.


No alternative is needed. The fact that one unit produces a couple more results than another is common to all aspects of the game. No units produce 10-15 on a lucky roll, so it doesn't matter.

I think the best, most elegant solution presented is McCoy's proposal. It has the following:

1. No doubling
2. A natural, simple system for reserves casting (only minor spells)
3. A system to check mage power from becoming overwhelming (one major per turn)
4. Still maintains importance of terrain colors (needed for casting majors)

As long as the spells are well-written, it solves every problem with magic in a simple, easy to grasp system. I vote for it 100%.
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DEEPBLUEB2
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:32 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why don't you just limit magic to magic icons while you are at it.

Then only magicians can cast magic.

I don't think magic is out of hand anyways...
if you ever played in a grove...
no doubling really slows things down...
and if you are hit with dancing lights...
magic is just about null.


So you need doubling.

That was the whole point of the grove,
to make a terrain that you can't double at.

I suggest you bring a grove if you want to limit magic from doubling...
rather than modify the entire game.

=============



Quote:
But why double? Why not double only real magic icons?


The original design allowed units that matched the terrain to double magic.

Then the game rules changed to only Id can double.

In the first worlds they sprung this change on me.

================
Quote:

what if...

We got rid of magic doubling?
Instead, the cost or effect of some spells would depend on the terrain.


I thought simplicity was the goal...
this would create too much cross reference to the rules booklet.
As it is...player still need their cheat sheets for reference.

===============

If you are so against doubling,
make magic only castable from actual magic icons,
and lift the restriction of 1/2 magic.

I like to use the zealot and dragonmasters...
their SFR logo ID is their forte.

So if you kill doubling Ids for magic...
even a dragonlord can't summon a dragon?

what is that?


Last edited by DEEPBLUEB2 on Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:41 am GMT; edited 1 time in total
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Denimwizard
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:41 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim, I could see limiting magic to just magicians. The only problem I see is the how little mages you get in kickers and starters. Not saying the rules should compensate for that. But I think the idea of having ID icons produce magic really plays to the lore that every race has a little magic in them. So they have a random chance to tap into it. The Mage can tap into magic when ever they wish.
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eggsaladsandwich
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:43 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Split the difference and say only magic units IDs can double, and only magic units can cast magic at a Grove (but cant double). Makes no sense that a 3 point melee unit would be able to generate 6 points of magic.
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DEEPBLUEB2
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:46 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would rather lower the magic limit lower than 50% if doubling is such an issue.

eldarim Champions need to be able to summon dragons with their ID...
also the SFR logo, since it's 2 health,
needs to double as well.

Now if it is deemed that only magicians can double...
then this still works.

So only dragonmasters and dragonlords can double.

I guess....

I was looking forward to casting magic with the zealots SFR logo... Confused


Last edited by DEEPBLUEB2 on Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:53 am GMT; edited 1 time in total
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eggsaladsandwich
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:50 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim Rayborn wrote:
...eldarim Champions need to be able to summon dragons with their ID...
also the SFR logo, since it's 2 health,
needs to double as well.


Why?
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Denimwizard
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:51 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Egg I agree with you on the ID doubling for a melee unit here. Mages should be the ones only allowed to double since they harness magic Razz
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DEEPBLUEB2
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:54 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why...

BECAUSE THEY ARE A DRAGONMASTER>>>>
and a DRAGONLORD...
they should be able to harness the power to cast a dragon solely.

Quote:
Egg I agree with you on the ID doubling for a melee unit here. Mages should be the ones only allowed to double since they harness magic



Oh...and let's not forget the dragonstaff...
does it lose power to double magic?


I don't think everyone thought this though.
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eggsaladsandwich
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:57 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim Rayborn wrote:
Why...

BECAUSE THEY ARE A DRAGONMASTER>>>>
and a DRAGONLORD...
they should be able to harness the power to cast a dragon solely.


Dragon masters and lords are magic units so they would be able to double anyway. I dont see the logic of having a dragon killer like the slayers and hunters be able to summon a dragon just to slay it. Cool
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Denimwizard
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:58 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dragon masters and dragon lords are 4 health worth i thought thus there ID icon would double and cost 8 . Are you saying cause they dont classify as a mage. Dont Cantrip icons count toward a magic in a normal magic action ?? I dont see the problem here we can add to their description that they are a mage haha
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Denimwizard
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:59 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Egg i think dragon lords taking control of a dragon and then ride it off to another terrain right? lol Why wouldnt they want to summon a dragon.

Dragon Steeds are awesome Mr. Green
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eggsaladsandwich
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 10:00 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

yep , edited my post as i got my lords and slayers mixed up. Razz
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stormywaters
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:35 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Magic doubling should go for three reasons:

1. It promotes *wild* variances in results
2. IDs don't double for anything else, why magic?
3. It's clunky and awkward: "So let's see, I've got 5 magic and six ID. I can double two IDs for black. Then I can summon a dragon... Now how much gold is left? What about blue?"

"Okay, my goblins rolled 6 magic, four ID, and four Cantrip. You cast Dancing Lights, so... How many do I have again?"

As far as I can tell, the *only* reason doubling exists is so that terrain colors matter. And why are we trying to *further* limit your army-building options, instead of balancing magic so you can play a full 36-point mage any if you want?


Last edited by stormywaters on Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:41 pm GMT; edited 1 time in total
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stormywaters
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:38 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim Rayborn wrote:
Why...

BECAUSE THEY ARE A DRAGONMASTER>>>>
and a DRAGONLORD...
they should be able to harness the power to cast a dragon solely.


Because...?

Quote:
Oh...and let's not forget the dragonstaff...
does it lose power to double magic?


I don't think everyone thought this though.


Yes, it does, and yes, we have. I don't understand why you're clinging to doubling without any reason than "because that's how it should be!"
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Denimwizard
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:48 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Magic doubling should go for three reasons:

1. It promotes *wild* variances in results
2. IDs don't double for anything else, why magic?
3. It's clunky and awkward: "So let's see, I've got 5 magic and six ID. I can double two IDs for black. Then I can summon a dragon... Now how much gold is left?" What about blue?

As far as I can tell, the *only* reason doubling exists is so that terrain colors matter. And why are we trying to *further* limit your army-building options, instead of balancing magic so you can play a full 36-point mage any if you want?


To address number 2 Were saying you double magic icons or icons that generate magic results (ok i am throwing that one in there) Thus limiting it mages only doubling.

To adress number 3 yeah your right it is clunky and awkward for accounting purposes but you could simply take a couple numbered die say 2 tensided die and keep count. Or just write it down like i do. But this would tie up game time for sure.

I don't think an all mage army would be good tactically Yeah you can sling spells but if some one turns the terrain off a magic face your mages best be prepared to save. But i understand wanting that option .
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stormywaters
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:55 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Denimwizard wrote:
To address number 2 Were saying you double magic icons or icons that generate magic results (ok i am throwing that one in there) Thus limiting it mages only doubling.


I fully understand what you're saying. I'm saying the magic doesn't need doubling. If you want more magic, play more mages. We don't double IDs for maneuvers, or melee, or missiles, or saves.

Quote:
To adress number 3 yeah your right it is clunky and awkward for accounting purposes but you could simply take a couple numbered die say 2 tensided die and keep count. Or just write it down like i do. But this would tie up game time for sure.


It's beyond just remembering. The calculating itself is clunky and difficult.

Quote:
I don't think an all mage army would be good tactically Yeah you can sling spells but if some one turns the terrain off a magic face your mages best be prepared to save. But i understand wanting that option .


That's my point. We have a restriction on options that doesn't need to exist. This restriction can be fixed (in part) by removing magic doubling.
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DEEPBLUEB2
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:18 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because...?

if they are dragon masters...then they solely can summon a dragon...
likewise a dragonlord...LORD!!! should be able to summon a dragon of any color.

Ok maybe not a white dragon.



here's how magic was... in the beginning...



Terrain Advantage: Any points spent on a color of magic that matches a color of the terrain where the army is are doubled.


so this meant any magic icon as well...
not just Ids



Now if you want to say...
only mages can double magic...
then keep in mind...artifacts are not classified as mages...

so if a dragonstaff can double since it has a magic icon...
then so can a flying carpet.

===========





Quote:
I don't understand why you're clinging to doubling without any reason than "because that's how it should be!"


Clinging?

Doubling of magic has been in the game since the beginning.

It was only when magic was determined too strong that they decided to limit it to 50%...
and limit doubling to IDs.

So maybe the modification to the original rules was flawed...
not the doubling concept.

It may have taken this much time to realize this.

Look to be realistic...
even spell costs were modified in an attempt to balance magic...
but as many a discussion has gone...
things like the troll regen...
or even the gold medallion SFr seem to be ok...since it helps the game without magic.

Now to have an all non magic army and double magic...
I can see the issue there too as well...
so having doubling limited to magicians might balance things.

Frostwings and Amazon mages will still need to be at a standing stones...
but will certain races dominate because they have more magical monsters?

=============


I don't think doubling magic is the issue,
it's that since units can double their Ids...
magicians are being substituted for useful non mages.
I think this is primarily due to the way events are run,
this is...you don't need to stand the test of time...you just need a few lucky rolls...
not enough rounds.
So why use actually magicians?

So perhaps in light of the going trend of a 4 round tournament,
then I can see limiting doubling magic to strictly mages,
to encourage the use of actual magicians.
In the long run,
I think a true mage based army would come out on top,
but luck seems to prevail in a small runs over a long term.

I can't see eliminating doubling for a few simple reasons.

1. commons do double...most of them have a 2 magic face.
2. since the commons have a 2 magic face,
the rare sai adds an extra dimension,
while still allowing doubling from the ID...without this (doubling the Id)...
the commons would seem a better mathematical choice.
3. a rare mage should be able to cast most of the races spells...by itself!!!
So if doubling is eliminated...
the spell costs would need to be lowered.


If restricting doubling to just mages...
does it make the game easier? NO

Does it tone down the overpowered magic?
I don't think magic is over powered...
I think this is mainly a way to stop players from not using mages..
so it's to the advantage of a non mage army if you totally eliminate doubling...
non mage armies win.
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stormywaters
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:03 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have yet to create a concise, *logical* reason why magic doubling needs to exist. You've said "we've always had doubling", which is an argumentum ad antiquitatem; it's logically fallacious.

You've said "They're Lords, so they should summon dragons!" Says who? This is simply using loaded words and poetic license to justify your own desires.

The issue is *absolutely* not because non-mages can replace mages.

Magic doubling existed, as far as anyone has told me, to make sure terrain colors served a purpose. A better system that balances magic has been proposed.

I've stated logical, reasonable arguments for the removal of magic doubling. Until you can do the same for keeping it - not using logical fallacies - then there is nothing to discuss.
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