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Magic Discussion
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stormywaters
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:08 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
1. commons do double...most of them have a 2 magic face.


Most dice have a face with more icons than their health.

Quote:
2. since the commons have a 2 magic face, the rare sai adds an extra dimension, while still allowing doubling from the ID...without this (doubling the Id)... the commons would seem a better mathematical choice.


I hear Cantrip is pretty good. And there is more at work than just magic icons. One uncommon might save better than a pair of commons would.

Quote:
3. a rare mage should be able to cast most of the races spells...by itself!!! So if doubling is eliminated... the spell costs would need to be lowered.


A rare should be able to cast all the spells because... That's more poetic license at work, not real logic.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:30 pm GMT    Post subject: Magic 3.0 Reply with quote

Removing the magic doubling rule would simplify the math (and time) currently used to calculate available magic points for a magic action, and would reduce the impact of non-magician dice when casting magic, and this might allow no restrictions on army composition for the "Constructed" event. Those changes sound like they are worth playtesting, even with the current Spell List.

One aspect these changes impact is the incentive for a race to use terrains that match its colors (ie: magic-doubling). Some races have a racial ability tied to a terrain, which is an incentive. Do Feral, Scalders and Treefolk need an incentive to use Flatlands, Feylands and Swamplands, respectively? The background history of the races and their aspects suggest that some benefit would be in order - but it does not have to be magic-based.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:50 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've proposed at least 2 variations that require terrain colors to matter, but aren't magic-dependent. In addition, McCoy proposed a (very good) revamp of the magic system that manages power level, terrain colors, *and* reserve magic elegantly and intuitively.

I think it's apparent that magic doubling can be changed and magic can be brought into line so that no unit-restriction rules need exist.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 10:25 pm GMT    Post subject: Magic Discussion Reply with quote

It might be in order to assemble a summary of the proposed changes to a magic action, then.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 5:08 pm GMT    Post subject: Re: Magic Discussion Reply with quote

Well the ideas I can track down are as follows:

1. Major and Minor Spells. The elegance of this system can't be neglected. It reins in the power level of magic, it removes doubling, it allows for terrain colors to serve a purpose, and it makes a simple, intuitive system for casting from reserves. No longer will someone ask "Can I cast that from reserves?" The answer is always "Major=No, Minor=Yes".

Quote:
Summary of Major/Minor Spells

Minor Spells:

  • Units only cast spells of their colors
  • Can be cast from reserves
  • Units may cast any number of different minor spells per turn


Major Spells:

  • Can only be cast if the units and the terrain contain the spell's color
  • Cannot be cast from reserves
  • Only one major spell can be cast per turn (see below)

Note: Spells would be reworded in such a way that spells would not be cast multiple times. For example, Finger of Death might read:

Finger of Death - Major Spell - Black
For every 4 points of black magic spent to cast this spell, deal one damage to any target unit.

So instead of casting Finger of Death multiple times, you would cast it once, but the effect can have more magic funneled into it when you cast.


2. Reworking colors and basics. This is an interesting idea, and can be combined with Major/Minor (above).

Quote:
Summary of New Colors and Basics

One list of basic, colorless spells that contain the following (not to exclude other possibilities):

  • Resurrection
  • Summoning
  • Burial
  • Saves (possibly?)

A short list of colored spells that give each color a specific theme; perhaps red is the color of melee, and green is the defensive color, etc.

Finally, each race has ~2 racial spells to give themes to each race (with exceptions for perhaps Amazons and Undead).


3. Terrain Boosting. I originally proposed this idea, though it's not my favorite by any stretch; I definitely prefer the Major/Minor.

Quote:
Summary of Terrain Boosting

Spells cast at a terrain that matches the color of the spell are somehow "empowered" or "improved". Wall of Ice might add 4 saves at a terrain containing green, for example.

Additional ideas in this vein are that spells are slightly cheaper at a terrain with their color. So a Wall of Ice might only cost 2 at a terrain with green.


4. Terrain-type doubling. Not a bad idea, but I still would rather have doubling just removed, as I think it's too potent. The other problems are that it forces a terrain type onto races that don't naturally have one, and it removes the utility of Standing Stones (as you won't have any use for a SS of a different color).

Quote:
Summary of Terrain-Type Doubling

Each race has a chosen "magic" terrain. For many races, this is a given (Swampstalkers in Swamps, Coral Elves at Coastlands, etc.). While at this terrain, mages always double both colors, no matter what. At any other terrain, no magic is doubled for those units.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:25 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You have yet to create a concise, *logical* reason why magic doubling needs to exist. You've said "we've always had doubling", which is an argumentum ad antiquitatem; it's logically fallacious.


Yikes...
ok ok...
it's my birthday today...
so give me a little slack...hehe

Well you're right...just because is not good enough.

Terrain Advantage is the real answer.

So terrains offer benefit to matching aspects...
or elements and aspect compliment each other in magic.


==============

So I did come up with a way to address this doubling of magic delemia...
with a spell.

it would be easy if we just made mutli colored spells...like part water...
besides black...you could not double then.

But this makes some issues for the amazons.

So I thought make a spell that does not allow doubling...
call it...

Spreading of the Grove:
Target terrain cannot double magic.



Another thought.....

would be to associate terrains with race...

but what about death?

simple...
we have deadlands.

So we drop doubling of death by dead units...
you simply have to have a deadlands.


So swampstalkers must put a deadlands on a green terrain..and whala!!
doubling Swampstalker magic.

Amazon?
well they simply need a standing stones.

Frostwings...
add a deadlands on a blue terrain...plus it has to still be a standing stones.

So the death races have a bit a problem...but in actuality...
they have half the battle solved because they can cast a deadlands.

Scalders can only double at a feylands...


Ok you get the idea.

Now we could make a spell to erase every color...
and a spell to add every color...I'm sure the white dragon would be pleased...

so this may be a better way to direct your displeasure with magic...rather than eliminate a spectrum of the game.


alternately...

if we look at doubling being such an issue...
which is a terrain advantage factor...
why is it that the goblin's are not called too strong for being able to double manuevers?

Terrain advantage,
what this represents is the elements respecting aspect...
it's the balance of the game actually.
So we should not simply erase this marriage simply because the weight of the rules became inbalanced.

Now doubling magic is a restrictive measure for some races...and terrains...
you need a deadlands for example...
or undead units...
or even dead units to use the powerful death magic...
Amazons need to be a a specific terrain to double magic...likewise the anti magic frostwings need to be at the specified land as well.
The grove has no doubling because of it's abundance of magic.

So if you remove doubling completly...
this will have a spiral effect.

If we examine the origin of terrain advantage:
Terrain Advantage: Any points spent on a color of magic that matches a color of the terrain where the army is are doubled.

apply the new concept of only mages can double...

So now mages can only double magic..ID or actual magic icons.

THIS is how the game basically was designed...

OR...

we forgot that the 50% magic was a modification as well...

so perhaps this....
allow any amout of mages...
no ID can double...
only mages can cast magic...
and allow mages to double magic on magical icons only.


Terrain Advantage: Any points spent on a color of magic that matches a color of the terrain where the army is are doubled.
Only magic icons can be used to cast magic.

============


Now with all this talk about eliminating doubling magic...
did anyone forget about sitghtstones and ring of stars..
they don't need doubling...
with the new bonus rule,
they both double already.
A sightstone is 50% chance of doubling every roll!!!

So dice are not banished...and you can't erase icons,
so we still have the same situation.
What is the real issue?

You don't want non mages...who have to be at the correct color terrain BTW...to have a Flash of Brilliance..and double their Id roll for magic?

Or is it magic is too strong?


If it is magic is too strong...
I suggest a few simple magic spells to controll that...
(in fact top that off with DL...what magic?)

fight fire with fire. Twisted Evil
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stormywaters
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 12:23 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim Rayborn wrote:
Yikes...
ok ok...
it's my birthday today...
so give me a little slack...hehe


Happy birthday!!!

Quote:
Well you're right...just because is not good enough.

Terrain Advantage is the real answer.

So terrains offer benefit to matching aspects...
or elements and aspect compliment each other in magic.


There are ways for terrains to impact magic other than doubling. This still is not an answer to the question "Why should magic doubling exist?"

Quote:
So I did come up with a way to address this doubling of magic delemia...
with a spell.

it would be easy if we just made mutli colored spells...like part water...
besides black...you could not double then.

But this makes some issues for the amazons.

So I thought make a spell that does not allow doubling...
call it...

Spreading of the Grove:
Target terrain cannot double magic.


Why? You're still dodging the question. Why should doubling even exist, other than "because that's how we've always done it" and "because I like it".

Quote:
Another thought.....

would be to associate terrains with race...


This has already been adressed. If you pair Feral with Flatland for doubling, they're not going to take a Standing Stones for another color because then they can't double at all.

Quote:
but what about death?

simple...
we have deadlands.

So we drop doubling of death by dead units...
you simply have to have a deadlands.


So swampstalkers must put a deadlands on a green terrain..and whala!!
doubling Swampstalker magic.

Amazon?
well they simply need a standing stones.

Frostwings...
add a deadlands on a blue terrain...plus it has to still be a standing stones.

So the death races have a bit a problem...but in actuality...
they have half the battle solved because they can cast a deadlands.

Scalders can only double at a feylands...


All of this is still irrelevant until you can answer why doubling must exist.


Quote:
Ok you get the idea.

Now we could make a spell to erase every color...
and a spell to add every color...I'm sure the white dragon would be pleased...

so this may be a better way to direct your displeasure with magic...rather than eliminate a spectrum of the game.


No it wouldn't. Doubling is not a "spectrum of the game". It's a source of unnecessary confusion, it's a boost to the power of (already overpowered) magic, and it's not necessary for terrain colors. A spectrum it is not.


Quote:
alternately...

if we look at doubling being such an issue...
which is a terrain advantage factor...
why is it that the goblin's are not called too strong for being able to double manuevers?


I think they are, but that is a completely different discussion.

Quote:
Terrain advantage,
what this represents is the elements respecting aspect...
it's the balance of the game actually.
So we should not simply erase this marriage simply because the weight of the rules became inbalanced.


It can already be used to make elements respect aspect, without the need for doubling.

Quote:
Now doubling magic is a restrictive measure for some races...and terrains...
you need a deadlands for example...
or undead units...
or even dead units to use the powerful death magic...
Amazons need to be a a specific terrain to double magic...likewise the anti magic frostwings need to be at the specified land as well.
The grove has no doubling because of it's abundance of magic.


None of this proves doubling should exist.

Quote:
So if you remove doubling completly...
this will have a spiral effect.

If we examine the origin of terrain advantage:
Terrain Advantage: Any points spent on a color of magic that matches a color of the terrain where the army is are doubled.

apply the new concept of only mages can double...

So now mages can only double magic..ID or actual magic icons.

THIS is how the game basically was designed...

OR...

we forgot that the 50% magic was a modification as well...

so perhaps this....
allow any amout of mages...
no ID can double...
only mages can cast magic...
and allow mages to double magic on magical icons only.


So you want to change how IDs work by not letting non-mages cast, allow more mages, and allow mages to double more often than they do now? That's your solution to magic power levels?

Quote:
Now with all this talk about eliminating doubling magic...
did anyone forget about sitghtstones and ring of stars..
they don't need doubling...
with the new bonus rule,
they both double already.
A sightstone is 50% chance of doubling every roll!!!

So dice are not banished...and you can't erase icons,
so we still have the same situation.
What is the real issue?

You don't want non mages...who have to be at the correct color terrain BTW...to have a Flash of Brilliance..and double their Id roll for magic?

Or is it magic is too strong?


If it is magic is too strong...
I suggest a few simple magic spells to controll that...
(in fact top that off with DL...what magic?)

fight fire with fire. Twisted Evil


The problem has been addressed. It's power level and confusion.

I'm still waiting for the answer to my question:

"Why should magic doubling exist?"
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stormywaters
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:14 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, I'll summarize my stance as concisely and soundly as possible. If you'd like to discuss the points I've made, make an argument not based on "that's how it's always been" or "that's what I personally like".


Reasons Magic Doubling Exists

  • Terrain colors are given importance.

  • ?

Reasons Magic Doubling Is Bad

  • It is unnecessarily confusing unless all IDs can always be doubled for magic, regardless of terrain colors or anything else, which defeats the purpose of magic doubling.

  • It makes magic more powerful, allowing you to bring fewer mages than you would otherwise need for the same results. It increases the magic production of an army by 1/6th the total health of the army.

  • It is not common to any other icon type in the game, barring racial/minor terrain/eighth face abilities.

Problems Removing Doubling Would Help

  • Magic power level would be brought down somewhat (though it would still need some work), reducing average magic results by ~3 per 18-health army.

  • It removes confusion pertaining to armies rolling for magic at non-matching terrains.

Problems Created by Removal of Doubling

  • Terrain colors no longer have importance.

  • Players need more magic units to generate the same number of magic results.



Now, to address the problems created by removal of magic doubling. Terrain colors can be given importance through any number of means, several of which have been presented. As an additional effect of removing doubling is that it would be a step toward removing the 50% limitation on mages during army creation.

Does anyone have anything further to add regarding magic doubling, specifically arguments that it should remain?
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 11:45 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

stormywaters wrote:
Reasons Magic Doubling Exists

  • Terrain colors are given importance.
  • ?

Because that is how Lester Smith envisioned/designed the game.
Dragon Dice™ Bible wrote:
Each race can cast magic of the elements with which it is aligned, and the nature of the terrain the caster occupies can enhance that magic. (For example: Coral elves do better with water magic when they are near large bodies of water.)

I believe another reason is because mages are generally frail and not too good with melee or missile, so they got enhanced magic casting ability to compensate.

There are ways to link magic and terrains together other than doubling. I think magic doubling has gotten clunky over time and could be eliminated in favor of other features.
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stormywaters
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:08 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

piMaster wrote:
Because that is how Lester Smith envisioned/designed the game.
Dragon Dice™™ Bible wrote:
Each race can cast magic of the elements with which it is aligned, and the nature of the terrain the caster occupies can enhance that magic. (For example: Coral elves do better with water magic when they are near large bodies of water.)

I believe another reason is because mages are generally frail and not too good with melee or missile, so they got enhanced magic casting ability to compensate.


Ah! Very good to know. It does make sense from a flavor standpoint, but again it's clunky, unbalanced, and time-consuming.

Quote:
There are ways to link magic and terrains together other than doubling. I think magic doubling has gotten clunky over time and could be eliminated in favor of other features.


We agree on another thing? What sorcery is this?!? Very Happy
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:24 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

stormywaters wrote:
We agree on another thing? What sorcery is this?!? Very Happy

I'm just softening you up for later Mr. Green
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:49 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
All of this is still irrelevant until you can answer why doubling must exist?


Why is magic limited to 50%?

I thought mabey...
OK drop doubling of magic...
completely...
then allow magic to be any amount of health.

Now...
if doubling is removed...
then the rules spiral...
The Dragonlord is rated at 4 health magic?
and limited to the amount of dragons?

Well the Vampire's rating was reduced to 2 health due to it's lack of magic.

So I think a Dragonlord...
with it's inability to summon a dragon and basically cast magic on it's cantrip should be 2 or 3 health,
plus remove the dragon restrictions.

In fact...
I'm thinking DISALLOW ANY ID FROM DOUBLING PERIOD.
Even on an 8th face, minor terrain,..or any racial doubling.

So if you want double saves...
or double maneuvers,
you need to produce an actual icon...
or non ID result.

that means goblin ID can't double their IDs as maneuvers in a swampland.

IF IDS were considered non doubling wild cards,
then it would tone down quite a bit of Flash of Brilliance rolls.

Why should a unit with no maneuvers be allowed to double their maneuvers...if they roll an Id.

Group monsters have a field day with doubling IDs...


OH...wait...
back to the question....

why doubling must exist?

well... magic doubling right?
Wink

Doubling does not need to exist at all,
but if you remove it,
how does this affect the rest of the game.

I'm using the Amazons...
they can't double except at standing stones...
so now do they gain the ability to double at standing stones?,
while no other race can double?
or do we strip the amazons of doubling magic as well.

likewise for the frostwings...

and what of the grove...
it simply now unburies?

Of course we can say...
well well just adjust all those factors...

Ok...

so let's say we did...

now there's no doubling...
we adjusted anything that uses the word doubling of magic...

is it still 50% magic?
or abolish magic health completely?

eldarim Champions restricted to 1:1 dragon ratio?


Ok let's say we addressed all that...


with no doubling of magic...

YOU still have sightstones...which need no matching color of terrain to double,
they just need to be at a terrain...
and need to be in harmony with a carrier.

So that really means that a magic item,
which can double magic at a 50% level...
relies on aspect compliments,
plus it need to be at a terrain...

so in essence,
doubling of magic can never go away.

So now we ask...
well will this then bring a resurgence of magic item use...?
which might not be a bad thing...

but still more to the question...

why doubling must exist?

IF you want to ignore the elemental/aspect bonus in the game,
then it can't exist.




Quote:

Aspect: Term used to denote the color characteristics of a race, except Dragonkin. ‘Aspect’ is the appropriate term
used whenever an effect (mainly spells) alters these color characteristics. Example: “Until the beginning of your
next turn, only dead units with the black (death) aspect can be buried.” Note: Amazons are ivory, which signifies that
they are not inherently any specific aspect but derive their aspects from the terrain where they are located. Eldarim
have a unique characteristic and can consist of all aspects or a single aspect. See also color and element.


Quote:

Element: Term used to denote the color characteristics of a terrain, magical item, Dragonkin or dragon. ‘Element’ is
the appropriate term used whenever an effect (mainly spells) alters these color characteristics. Example: “Until the
end of your next turn, add the water (green) element to a target terrain.” Note: medallions have unique characteristics
and do not consist of an element. See also aspect and color.

Quote:

Color: Term that delineates the different attributes of a die or magic spells in the game. There are five colors that
depict these characteristics: gold signifies earth; blue indicates air; red typifies fire; green represents water and black
connotes death. Note: the Amazon race is composed of only one color – ivory. This connotes their human status and
the fact that they are not connected to any elements in the world of Esfah. This means that Amazons can only cast the
color of spells of the terrain they are located and can cast no magic in reserve. Also, the Eldarim race is composed of
either one color – white (meaning they have all colors and can cast any color of magic), or a single color – black, blue,
gold, green, red (meaning they are attuned to only that color). See also aspect and element.


oh and thanks for the birthday greetings... Razz
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:07 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm thinking DISALLOW ANY ID FROM DOUBLING PERIOD.
Even on an 8th face, minor terrain,..or any racial doubling.

So if you want double saves...
or double maneuvers,
you need to produce an actual icon...
or non ID result.

that means goblin ID can't double their IDs as maneuvers in a swampland.

IF IDS were considered non doubling wild cards,
then it would tone down quite a bit of Flash of Brilliance rolls.

Why should a unit with no maneuvers be allowed to double their maneuvers...if they roll an Id.

That's an interesting idea, and we already do something like that anyway: Frostwings can't negate magic with their IDs, and Scalders can't count IDs as scorching touch.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:10 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
That's an interesting idea, and we already do something like that anyway: Frostwings can't negate magic with their IDs, and Scalders can't count IDs as scorching touch.


That's exactly where I got that idea from. Cool
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:19 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm thinking DISALLOW ANY ID FROM DOUBLING PERIOD.
Even on an 8th face, minor terrain,..or any racial doubling.

So if you want double saves...
or double maneuvers,
you need to produce an actual icon...
or non ID result.

that means goblin ID can't double their IDs as maneuvers in a swampland.

IF IDS were considered non doubling wild cards,
then it would tone down quite a bit of Flash of Brilliance rolls.

Why should a unit with no maneuvers be allowed to double their maneuvers...if they roll an Id.


Why not play test this idea then? See how it pans out over the course of multiple games. My friends and I have been testing out the "choose your home terrains face" idea and it works out well but with magic doubling as it is it can promote turtling quickly. That is if your army magic focused.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:33 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim Rayborn wrote:
Why is magic limited to 50%?

I thought mabey...
OK drop doubling of magic...
completely...
then allow magic to be any amount of health.

Now...
if doubling is removed...
then the rules spiral...
The Dragonlord is rated at 4 health magic?
and limited to the amount of dragons?

Well the Vampire's rating was reduced to 2 health due to it's lack of magic.

So I think a Dragonlord...
with it's inability to summon a dragon and basically cast magic on it's cantrip should be 2 or 3 health,
plus remove the dragon restrictions.


The Vampire wasn't reduced to 2 health, only for purposes of determining magic limit; it still counts as a 3 health unit, and since magic unit limits can be removed, this rule wouldn't need to exist. A vampire would just be a 3 health regular rare like all the rest.

Quote:
In fact...
I'm thinking DISALLOW ANY ID FROM DOUBLING PERIOD.
Even on an 8th face, minor terrain,..or any racial doubling.

So if you want double saves...
or double maneuvers,
you need to produce an actual icon...
or non ID result.

that means goblin ID can't double their IDs as maneuvers in a swampland.

IF IDS were considered non doubling wild cards,
then it would tone down quite a bit of Flash of Brilliance rolls.

Why should a unit with no maneuvers be allowed to double their maneuvers...if they roll an Id.


Not relevant to the discussion of magic, but a good idea nonetheless.

Quote:
Group monsters have a field day with doubling IDs...


Again, not relevant, but I'm looking to get rid of that aspect as well.


Quote:
I'm using the Amazons...
they can't double except at standing stones...
so now do they gain the ability to double at standing stones?,
while no other race can double?
or do we strip the amazons of doubling magic as well.

likewise for the frostwings...


They can be tweaked to fix this change. It's pretty silly to assume that no change can be made.

Quote:
and what of the grove...
it simply now unburies?


Or it gets a new added bonus instead.

Quote:
now there's no doubling...
we adjusted anything that uses the word doubling of magic...

is it still 50% magic?
or abolish magic health completely?


No, I'd like to see magic adjusted so there doesn't need to be a 50% magic rule.

Quote:
eldarim Champions restricted to 1:1 dragon ratio?


Not relevant to magic, but yes. They are actually tied to your dragon limit.

Quote:
with no doubling of magic...

YOU still have sightstones...which need no matching color of terrain to double,
they just need to be at a terrain...
and need to be in harmony with a carrier.

So that really means that a magic item,
which can double magic at a 50% level...
relies on aspect compliments,
plus it need to be at a terrain...


It won't double magic, because magic doubling is gone.

Quote:
so in essence,
doubling of magic can never go away.


That doesn't follow.

Quote:
IF you want to ignore the elemental/aspect bonus in the game,
then it can't exist.


Again, there are numerous ways that "elemental" and "aspect" flavor can be maintained without doubling.

You still have not produced a real, logical argument for why magic doubling has to exist. You've used more poetic rhetoric and tried tying magic doubling to anything else you can, but still haven't produced a valid, logical reason.

I'm beginning to think you don't have one, and you want it to stay because "I like it" or "because that's how it is".
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DEEPBLUEB2
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:07 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You still have not produced a real, logical argument for why magic doubling has to exist. You've used more poetic rhetoric and tried tying magic doubling to anything else you can, but still haven't produced a valid, logical reason.

I'm beginning to think you don't have one, and you want it to stay because "I like it" or "because that's how it is".



when brainstorming there is no right or wrong...

I don't take the stand of "because I like it"...
nor do I defend doubling,
in fact I have already produced concepts that disallow doubling.

So maybe that's why you are not finding any concrete reasoning.

In fact...
the comment of...magic doubling has to exist
is not mine....
I only presented as many reason as I could as to why I thought magic doubling should still exist...
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DEEPBLUEB2
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:14 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

IDs:
Cannot double

So this idea stops the wild card from gaining bonus,
and make the game more of a roll an actual Icon.

Now the fireshadow has create fireminions...
so maybe the game should just allow wild card icons...be it SAI or Id...
to simply produce a result...but never be doubled.

Amazon's can't convert their Ids to maneuvers during missile...
and then double them at a flatlands...

So maybe that should hold true to any race...
or magic item, in any situation.


So minor terrains, 8th faces, even spells for that matter...
racial abilites...
if it says double...it needs to be produced from a non ID non SAI result.
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NMcCoy
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 1:43 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really not a fan of that change - it affects a whole lot of things and I don't see a strong call for it (are minor terrains, Trumpet, and Dwarf and Goblin racial abilities all overpowered to precisely the same degree?), but want to contribute to the concept: If you must do that, bake it in as an inclusion rather than exception. If you have a rule that "IDs can't be doubled," where do you put it in the rulebook such that newbies won't easily overlook it? Instead, make it something like "when at a Highland terrain, each Dwarf maneuver icon produces two results".

Also, a technical note: As I understand it, Amazons already can't "convert their ID to maneuvers" when rolling for missile results anyway.

Lastly, the Dwarf missile and magic units are sad that you're taking away their racial ability. :p
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stormywaters
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 2:04 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim Rayborn wrote:
Now the fireshadow has create fireminions...
so maybe the game should just allow wild card icons...be it SAI or Id...
to simply produce a result...but never be doubled.


So special icons aren't special, but normal icons are special?

Quote:
Amazon's can't convert their Ids to maneuvers during missile...
and then double them at a flatlands...


Not because of doubling rules, but because IDs produce results you're rolling for, not whatever results you decide.

Quote:
So minor terrains, 8th faces, even spells for that matter...
racial abilites...
if it says double...it needs to be produced from a non ID non SAI result.


Maybe, but that's a completely different subject. Magic is much more potent and flexible than saves or maneuvers.

The point remains that MAGIC doubling should go, whether it applies to IDs or non-ID magic results.
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