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Magic Discussion
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Raven's Hollow Games
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 3:32 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know you post to make serious changes that would result in absolute changes to the games oridginal design, yet complain about something that would certainly result in the goal you are trying to achieve Skawilly.

You say major terrains should be the only non random dice in the game, yet the idea proposed still requires a random roll. Now in a real war the taking of a minor strategic point eg minor terrain, the way it is used from that point is often for the reason it was taken.
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Skawilly
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 6:28 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your definitely right Raven, in both statements.

Though, I was not trying to give an absolute argument either. I was just saying random rolls is the nature of things.
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 8:25 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well based on everyone's comments...
it seems that the real issue is not doubling of magic...
but the actual spells that allow casting many times...
like wind walks...transmutes.

The trouble with a price increase is it puts it out of the range of a cantrip.

Mire was once 5...and the rare Swamp mage had a five magic face...
so I think that is why the increase.


Path is a dandy spell because it can be accessed though a cantrip...
wind walk and wilding too...
burning hands...

so perhaps a limit on how many time a spell can be cast?

Like I said...
magic to me is weak...
there are just a handful of spells that really gain anything from a heavy magic roll...

I though maybe increase the dragon count...to allow extra magic to be used...since 2 dragons are sometimes non effective.

anyways...
as far as the transmute/windwalk comment...
I still stand by it...
as this to me is the most common load up spell, which seems at times just seems to turn Dragon Diceâ„¢ into a card game...rather than rolling for results.

I found armies that don't have SAI maneuver icons are subject to this,
and many new player do not incorporate maneuver SAIs into their army until after they have been at the tail end of a transmute game ender.


There are many ways to tame magic already within the game.
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 8:55 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim, I think you have some very valid thoughts, especially the observations on TRtM and Wind Walk. I personally think TRtM might be firmly at the root of the magic imbalance. It is one of the few spells that creates a bigger result than the amount of magic required to cast it, and affects so many aspects of the game. Its not just about a simple reduction of maneuver results. It is about nullifying a good amount of racial benefits, and about kicking people off 8th as well. TRtM also seems to the most crucial part in the TRtM combo, once again because it offers so much for a small cost and small commitment.
Limiting TRtM to once per army might be a very good idea. Even simpler, it might even be sufficient to reduce it to a -4 for 5 or 6. I personally have less against Wind Walk, but perhaps reducing it to +3 for 4 might be an idea. In that case I think TRtM should be -4/6, as I think TRtM is way more disruptive than Wind Walk, and hence should be slightly less effective. The large cost of 6 should also make it a bit harder to cast it so many times.
A nice side effects of these changes would be that Wall of Fog and Deluge, two spells I think are quite uninteresting, suddenly look decent enough in comparison.


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Skawilly
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 8:58 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Well based on everyone's comments...
it seems that the real issue is not doubling of magic...
but the actual spells that allow casting many times...
like wind walks...transmutes.


I dont personally feel thats true for myself. Your addressing the thread as a whole though and it is definitely a major factor here. I will say a few things as if you were talking to just me, which your addressing the mass, I understand that much.

So to say magic is weak, this is true in comparison to say melee or ranged its VERY weak. If you get slammed by 18 points of ranged/heavy melee you will like lose 7 + health and that health will snow ball because on the next attack you will have that much less saves. Where as magic is way more consistent and usually will take down 3 or 4 health.
I think the real issue here though is that no matter the state of terrains, mages on a magic face will always get that 3 health shot at you, and melee/ranged need a circumstantial position and usually not when your on an 8th, which GREATLY reduces there power to less than that of magic as raw damage.

But not comparing raw damage as I was saying, magic diversity is just too good to not have and that is the real strength in mages. It does everything all the SAI's do (for the most part) with vastly greater resolution. Albeit not as powerful toe to toe as the SAI's but given say 3 rounds time mages would have done a great deal more.

Diversity in SAI's is key to balance, in my current scope of vision.

Now I will agree with you on this. bringing 50% mages is not essential and actually, just enough points to maintain that diversity and reinforce your 2ndary (yes 2ndary) class can be very advantageous. Bottom line though, mages are required.
There would be no way I would bring 33% ranged for any reason. But 33% mages is still very effective.
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Raven's Hollow Games
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 4:09 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that most of us feel mages are a very powerful part of the game (sorry Jim). The point is, if they are so hated why do most of us use them. I agree with Jim, the correct fix is in the cost and power of the spells. His solution of Windwalk generating 3 maneuvers would be great, why should a magic result generate an equal number of maneuvers. TRtM is addressed repeatedly as well, why not 5 for 4. The spell is still great when you factor in Flash Flood.

If we really want to help missiles lets make illusion halve results. I still feel that one of the best ways to assist melee and missiles is with the minor terrains.

As to all the comments about ID results, one of the most unique things about this game is everyone always has a chance to get a result they are looking for. Its the chaos factor if you will. It is stated that Magic is the most powerful thing (sorry Jim). If that is so, then maybe the original designers took that into account. Anyone can roll for magic, and anyone can double if they share a color. Which means anyone can summon a dragon.

What I'm trying to say is this game is well thought out. Yes maybe a few small tweaks would improve it, but lets not try to convince people to change the basic mechanics.
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 5:06 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skawilly wrote:
The only non random dice should be major terrains. The kings die is still in the works for a fix but other that that leaving a minor as is is simply against the spirit of things.


This is addressed well by Raven's Hollow (Yo!) but I do want to keep up in this convo. First is that I want to say that I am not specifically aiming to shoot down anyone, so I apologize if it seems I'm targeting you specifically Skawilly. You just gave me a good segueway into my points Very Happy

Anyway, I should point out (As Raven's did) that there is still a random factor in Minor Terrains, until either they become moot and useless or until the game changes and you need to sacrifice a manuever attempt to change the dice by rolling it again. Which is a "roll of the dice" as they say. Literally and figuratively. You aren't garaunteed good results on a Minor, and may have to roll it 7 times before you get the face that is most useful to you. It's randomness is still intact, and the spirit of the game maintains, though to a slightly lesser degree (And only slightly).

A good point to make as well is that you do NOT have to roll any of your dice. I have seen (As I'm sure we have all seen) rare circumstances when not taking any actions for an army, in a Maneuver Roll, a Counter Melee Roll, etc., is advantgeous to us. So why mandate that Minor Terrains HAVE to roll? Simply for the spirit of the game. Well, the spirit, in this sense, makes Minor Terrains less appealing.

I will, however, offer up that yes, the point of the game is to grab a bunch of dice, which is just plain neat and fun to feel in your hands for some reason, and roll them out. I can do it for hours, just rolling to see what results I'll get (And I have!). So the random factor, the nature of ROLLING dice IS important, and Minor Terrains are mandated to be rolled. Win Win, and it prevents people from hunkering down in a position and sticking it to the guy who is winning the terrain. Or from someone equally sticking it to the loser by having two terrains at his advantage.

But the point of THIS topic, and other topics, are how to streamline/improve/change the game in a way that is meaningful and not overly dramatic.

I have said all along "No, don't make that overly drastic change, because it is overly drastic and will screw up the game." I feel it is true, but it is not necessarily so. Being a nay sayer to mechanics changes for magic, or for how Minor Terrains should interact and work with Major Terrains, is merely a caution to consider what MIGHT occur, whether it is as bad as I say or not. And opting for less drastic changes is an introduction to alternatives that may or may not have been addressed (BUT should be explored). It's called R&D. Consider the change you are proposing (Research) and hear out all the ways it could go wrong, the pros and cons (Development). Then come to a compromise, or decide if a change is needed. Such considerations are not to be taken lightly, and for a company wanting to MAKE those changes, it should be doubly important to think the options through, so as not to make a mistake that could ruin the game.

Now, as an addition to that, I feel it should also be said that that model of thought should be used by everyone in this thread. Wanting to implement change is fine. Wanting to implement your OWN Change is fine. But don't hold your own idea to be the best until you have heard, considered, and properly weighed all alternatives, and also heard the constructive criticisms of your own. I have seen several times since I have entered into this topic simple dismissals that don't seem to account for the content or even consideration of someone elses ideas. Not a criticism of anyone, because it happens to and by everyone. I'm sure that even here I have done it somewhere. But I do want to mind that as a note so that as this discussion continues, we all realize that were are talking about messing with the mechanics of a game...a very well thought out game as is. In order to ensure it stays a great game, the process has to be weighed out considerably to determine if change is possible, or even worth doing.

I mean, seriously, look at what happened to Go Fish. Boy, that was a fun game, until they tried to streamline it. Now most people get bored with it by age ten...
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 4:47 pm GMT    Post subject: Magic Discussion Reply with quote

Hj!

I have some idea for magic theme. (Sorry, my english is not so good... Sad )

First: Why use magic the units are not a wizard? (Head icon) I belive that it is not used. (I played many-many battles, so that both side sit on the magic face the whole army, and many round is nothing happen. This is boring. If the non magician units don't use magic, does not make sense to stay here. (Except if the enemy summon dragons... Smile )

If you don't agree the first point, here is the second: The other unit then use magic, if at least 1 point magic user here the same army. (Because somebody who magic user, must control the magic.)

Okay, this is not over, here is the third idea: If the other units can use magic whitout a magician, they DON'T duplicate the head icons. Besides, why duplicate anyway?

Thanx for listening!
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:25 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven's Hollow Games wrote:
I think that most of us feel mages are a very powerful part of the game (sorry Jim). The point is, if they are so hated why do most of us use them.


I can't tell if this is a genuine question or a rhetorical one. The answer: because they are powerful.


Raven's Hollow Games wrote:
I agree with Jim, the correct fix is in the cost and power of the spells. His solution of Windwalk generating 3 maneuvers would be great, why should a magic result generate an equal number of maneuvers. TRtM is addressed repeatedly as well, why not 5 for 4. The spell is still great when you factor in Flash Flood.


Not enough. The problems with magic are that you can generate an incredible number of results, and those results can create a vast number of different outcomes for any situation. Need to kill a specific unit? Magic. Need to change a terrain up or down? Magic. Need to move an army off a terrain? Magic. Need to just deal some damage? Magic.

Raven's Hollow Games wrote:
[M]aybe the original designers took that into account. Anyone can roll for magic, and anyone can double if they share a color. Which means anyone can summon a dragon.


Maybe they didn't. Maybe the game has progressed and mutated over the years, and now things that were once in balance are now not in balance. I've heard a few times that the purpose of magic doubling was merely to make terrain colors matter. It doesn't have to be this way.

Raven's Hollow Games wrote:
What I'm trying to say is this game is well thought out. Yes maybe a few small tweaks would improve it, but lets not try to convince people to change the basic mechanics.


Instead, let's not start with assumptions and instead look at the game. Magic is broken. Armies that want to compete use magic, or dedicate a not-insignificant number of points to combating magic. Magic takes up the most time in a given game, and decides more games than not.

It needs to be fixed, not tweaked.

One That Was wrote:
But the point of THIS topic, and other topics, are how to streamline/improve/change the game in a way that is meaningful and not overly dramatic.


I don't see that stated anywhere. Certainly not in the original post, which I started. The point of this topic, and other topics, is to tear apart the game and assess it. Find its weaknesses and strengths. Change things that are broken and make the game better. Nowhere in there is there room for "not overly dramatic". If the rules necessitate a dramatic change, so be it.

What needs to happen is for the discussion to pause and for testing to commence. We need an authoritative figure to come in and say "Here are X potential changes we think might work. Start playing with each of these different rules and get back to us on what works and what doesn't."

I've been poking in and out for months, and nothing has moved anywhere. Everyone is running in circles chasing their own tails with endless discussions. Let's act! I have a new gaming store that opened, and they want to set up demo games and have store-copy armies for use, but I don't want to start teaching the game while it's still broken. Let's get this going already!
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:07 am GMT    Post subject: Magic Discussion Reply with quote

Hello All,

Forgive me if this is has already been proposed, my idea is this:

1) Get rid of Magic Doubling and tie spells to the terrain and racial colors.
In MTG (sorry for using them as an example), they used to have terms like 'islandwalk', etc, which (if I remember correctly) gave the creature an ability for cheaper or something to that effect. Why can't we employ something like this for our magic system? Have spells that are tied to the type of terrain. Example: Dwarfs in Flatland can cast 'x' gold spell giving them 'x' advantage. I know the goal is magic simplicity but I also want to keep terrain and race selection important/valid. This suggestion is not a complete thought, I'm just looking to help the creative process. Please let me know what you think.
Very Happy
Thanks,
Dave
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The Decepticons
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:53 am GMT    Post subject: Re: Magic Discussion Reply with quote

dproman wrote:

In MTG (sorry for using them as an example), they used to have terms like 'islandwalk', etc, which (if I remember correctly) gave the creature an ability for cheaper or something to that effect. Why can't we employ something like this for our magic system? Have spells that are tied to the type of terrain. Example: Dwarfs in Flatland can cast 'x' gold spell giving them 'x' advantage. I know the goal is magic simplicity but I also want to keep terrain and race selection important/valid. This suggestion is not a complete thought, I'm just looking to help the creative process. Please let me know what you think.
Very Happy
Thanks,
Dave


Just to clarify, in Magic... if an attacking creature with XXXXwalk matches what land your opponent has, than the attacking creature is concidered unblockable. Other effects however may treat it as though it was blocked.

Solid points though, i think that a matching land to the race should have some bonus effect that you would want desirable.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 1:09 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've had a boatload of red before,
and no spells really did much...
so saying get rid of doubling magic I see no real reason to...

IF anything,
I found non-promotional magical resurection to be the real issue with most of my armies...
litereally forcing you to make a choice between:

Reserection SAIs
Incremental Mages
promotional builds like Dragon killing /spells like rise of the Eldarim

The trouble falls when you are faced with going to the reserves to rebuild your army...
here there is no doubling...
and basically many armies simply cannot be rebuilt all but by the luckiest rolls...

I've been leaning on the Kings die of all things if I want to play a non troll/gold medallion army.

Doubling magic?
Maybe deal with it by eliminating the crime...
stop doubling black for instance...
since no lands have black, that should be an indicator...
blue seems to be cornered too...as no lands let that color get to high on the terrain die...
but blue allows saves...

so maybe eliminate the doubling of black from health killed...
make them put a deadlands up...
increase that spell as well...

IF black is really the criminal.

Game enders...like heavy gold....
look at that....
but to lump the entire spectum of magic into the catogory of no doubling seems off...

TO ME

anyways,

like I said...
I've had many games where abundance of magic only resulted in dragonkin/dragons
I feel that there are not too many stackable spells that can do anything much...
sure if the conditions are correct...then yes...
but simple conditions like rebuilding your army?
There simply is not enough magic.

Quite simply...
cheap regens allow ignorance of smaller dice,
since resurection is based on save rolls, attacks, and simply reserve rolls...vai troll...
this allows stacking up large dice and loadups of SAIS.

So there should be an easier way to regen your army without having to give in to using regen SAIs exclusively.

Dancing lights on an army in the reserves all but eliminates any rebuiding...
so the KING is nice...maybe lower the cost of the KING....

perhaps the KING is free if you don't use a troll/gold medallion.

OK slaughter my thoughts.

END
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:49 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

DEEPBLUEB2 wrote:
I've had a boatload of red before,
and no spells really did much...
so saying get rid of doubling magic I see no real reason to...


This doesn't hold water. I've never caused a car wreck, so I'm clearly the world's best driver. See how anecdotal evidence doesn't work?

DEEPBLUEB2 wrote:
IF anything,
I found non-promotional magical resurection to be the real issue with most of my armies...
litereally forcing you to make a choice between:

Reserection SAIs
Incremental Mages
promotional builds like Dragon killing /spells like rise of the Eldarim

The trouble falls when you are faced with going to the reserves to rebuild your army...
here there is no doubling...
and basically many armies simply cannot be rebuilt all but by the luckiest rolls...

I've been leaning on the Kings die of all things if I want to play a non troll/gold medallion army.


I'm struggling to find a point anywhere in this mess. Are you saying that the problem with magic is that you can't double in reserves? Are you saying the problem with DD is resurrection? Are you saying "magic is fine because you can't double in reserves, where you have to resurrect"?

DEEPBLUEB2 wrote:
Doubling magic?
Maybe deal with it by eliminating the crime...


There isn't a crime being committed. People are working well within the confines of the game to win games.

The issue, still, is as follows:

1. All races have easy access to magic.
2. Magic doubles on matching terrains, so it generates far more results than other outcomes.
3. Magic can create a number of unique effects that other actions can't, and has unlimited range.

There are no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Magic is too much.

DEEPBLUEB2 wrote:
stop doubling black for instance...
since no lands have black, that should be an indicator...
blue seems to be cornered too...as no lands let that color get to high on the terrain die...
but blue allows saves...


Blue doesn't have high magic faces for a reason. That reason? Too powerful with doubling.

DEEPBLUEB2 wrote:
IF black is really the criminal.


It isn't. The criminal is Wild Walk, TRtM, Flash Flood, Wilding, Lightning Strike, etc. I don't know where you got the idea that it's only black magic at fault here.

DEEPBLUEB2 wrote:
Game enders...like heavy gold....
look at that....
but to lump the entire spectum of magic into the catogory of no doubling seems off...


Doubling as a whole is too powerful an effect. All doubling. Goblins and Dwarves double maneuvers, and they are nearly unstoppable on their terrain. Amazons doubling maneuvers and converting to missiles on an eighth face is game-breaking.

DEEPBLUEB2 wrote:
simple conditions like rebuilding your army?
There simply is not enough magic.


Unless you stay at a terrain and take advantage of that sweet, sweet doubling. Then there is way more than enough.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 10:56 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Happy Holidays to you too. Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:15 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another idea I had was to dail down resurection cost based on health.

3 points brings back a common
5 points brings back an uncommon
7 points brings back a rare
and 9 points brings back a monster


keep in mind that 9 points is a top end spell...like night moves...
so 9 is considered difficult to come up with...
in standard format...36 health.

I'm basing this on game play... as I found that rare units... which cost 9 ...
are difficult to bring back,
similar to top ends spell.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:01 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the biggest thing necessary is massive, massive simplification. You shouldn't have to do much bookwork to keep track of spells. They should be limited to:

1. Things that happen now to an entire army.
2. Things that happen now to one or more dice, but not an entire army.
3. Things that happen on next turn or until end of next turn to an entire army.
4. Things that happen to a terrain until the end of the next turn.
5. Things that happen permanently to terrain or an entire army.

Spells like Earthen Armor slow the game down too much. A lot of the time, such spells could be emulated in a much simpler way anyway (usually not precisely, but "close enough").
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:48 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a problem with Burning Hands, Flaming Spears, etc. in that they are non-immediate unit targeting effects. i.e. you have to keep those dice aside and roll them separately everytime the army rolls. That takes time.

Earthen Armor only triggers when targeted with a unit affected effect. So it doesn't take any more book keeping time that your #5.

I do agree that the spells should be simplified (and this one is on the chopping block), but I don't see a huge benefit from that one.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 3:27 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

cliffwiggs wrote:
There is a problem with Burning Hands, Flaming Spears, etc. in that they are non-immediate unit targeting effects. i.e. you have to keep those dice aside and roll them separately everytime the army rolls. That takes time.

Earthen Armor only triggers when targeted with a unit affected effect. So it doesn't take any more book keeping time that your #5.

I do agree that the spells should be simplified (and this one is on the chopping block), but I don't see a huge benefit from that one.
I may have simply misread Earthen Armor, as I thought it had the same kind of bookkeeping that burning hands had. Embarassed
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 8:31 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cataphract wrote:
cliffwiggs wrote:
There is a problem with Burning Hands, Flaming Spears, etc. in that they are non-immediate unit targeting effects. i.e. you have to keep those dice aside and roll them separately everytime the army rolls. That takes time.

Earthen Armor only triggers when targeted with a unit affected effect. So it doesn't take any more book keeping time that your #5.

I do agree that the spells should be simplified (and this one is on the chopping block), but I don't see a huge benefit from that one.
I may have simply misread Earthen Armor, as I thought it had the same kind of bookkeeping that burning hands had. Embarassed


well, it DOES in that it affects a single unit and stays until it is used.

it's different in that it can only be used as an individual save and not during an army roll.

that's what makes it simpler, however if spells have to be cut, this is the only one of it's kind and as an outlier that makes me wanna remove it. Smile
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