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Question about making an online version
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TheLazyhase
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:25 am GMT    Post subject: Question about making an online version Reply with quote

Hello.

I am a bit bored and want to do a IT project on my free time. One of the numerous idea that are on the tables for me would be to do an informatic version of Dragon Diceā„¢. I.E. a version that launch dice, resolve spells, recall the game state, everything for a standard game.

Of course, before even writing one line of this, I want to know whether SFR is cool with that.

There is three options I see :
* SFR don't want that to be done, period.
* SFR is cool with that as long as it stay private and don't leak on the internet and the "definitive" version is sent to them (I.E. I will only use it to play with some friend and make sure nobody except me and SFR if they want have access to the code)
* SFR is cool with that as long as copyrights and legaleses to remind that it's their product are here. (not unlike http://www.boardgaming-online.com/ which allow to play for free a complete online version of a smallish boardgame)

The most likely option seem to be the second one, but I want to be real sure not to cause trouble to SFR.

In every case, the goal is to do something free in my spare time, not to propose services to SFR or promise anything to anybody. And even if SFR allow me to proceed, I won't guarantee that the project will be finished soon, or even at all.
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:37 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

The second you don't even have to tell us at all. If you don't distribute it then what happens at home, stays at home.

The third one. would be similar to DDInventory or DDAssist. As long as you don't monetize it and keep copy right notices intact, I see no issues (just I'm not the current president, so its only 80% my call)

You already excluded providing services to SFR, that would be an entirely different matter and if you wanted to discuss that (either now or after you are successful) send me a PM.
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chuckpint
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:47 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I am the president, and I'm cool with #3. Very Happy

Not to discourage you or anything, but a number of people have started this and never finished. Which is why most on-line games are played on our forum. BTW, we have the server bandwidth to look at hosting something on our servers. So if that is the route you want to go, let me know (Cliff handles most of the website UI, I do most of the back-end).

I'm going to move this thread to "Artwork, stories, and other user contributed stuff.", that's where it should be. Please feel free to post any questions, status, links to prototypes, whatever that you feel necessary to making this work.
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First Place at the first ever Daemon Diceā„¢ sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Diceā„¢, 20,000 Daemon Diceā„¢, and others (too many to count).
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TheLazyhase
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:56 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuckpint wrote:
Well, I am the president, and I'm cool with #3. Very Happy

Not to discourage you or anything, but a number of people have started this and never finished. Which is why most on-line games are played on our forum. BTW, we have the server bandwidth to look at hosting something on our servers. So if that is the route you want to go, let me know (Cliff handles most of the website UI, I do most of the back-end).


Thanks.

I know that projects are not alway finished. In fact, I don't promise that anything useful will come from it, but I want to give it a try. I will posts again once I have an at least partially useable demo.

(since my day job is actually IT engineer, I have a good confidence on the technical side, and a not-so-good confidence on the motivation side, which is the reason for absence of promises and everything)
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TheLazyhase
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:56 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have done the very first block : an army roller.

It's not yet useable by non-techie because the whole stuff is a command line python script, making a web interface for this is the second step.

Also, modifier have still to be added as number. In other word, you don't enter, say "n Palsy" but "save penalty of n".

Still, some result that it give, with a FrostWing army :
Quote:

Melee modifier : None
FW Dispatcher (#1) : 4 missile
FW Dispatcher (#2) : 2 save
FW Dispatcher (#3) : 4 missile
FW Defender (#4) : 2 ID
FW Defender (#5) : 2 ID
FW Wolf Master (#6) : 3 maneuver
FW Vindicator (#7) : 4 Smite
FW Devastator (#8) : 3 missile
FW Assailer (#9) : 3 ID
FW Bear Master (#10) : 4 Rend ; 3 ID
FW Magi (#11) : 4 Cantrip

* Smite 4
* Cantrip 4
Melee : 14


As you can calculate, Smite (and other similar SAI) are not added to regular melee results.

Now, a missile roll, with a cheated racial to show that racial multiplication work :

Quote:

Missile modifier :
* FW dices Missile are doubled
FW Dispatcher (#1) : 4 missile
FW Dispatcher (#2) : 4 missile
FW Dispatcher (#3) : 2 fly
FW Defender (#4) : 2 ID
FW Defender (#5) : 4 melees
FW Wolf Master (#6) : 2 ID
FW Vindicator (#7) : 3 melees
FW Devastator (#8) : 4 Bullseye
FW Assailer (#9) : 4 Volley
FW Bear Master (#10) : 4 Rend
FW Magi (#11) : 3 ID

* Bull's eye 4
Missile : 38


A magic roll, with a face substitution
Quote:

Magic modifier :
* FW dices Melee count as Magic
FW Dispatcher (#1) : 2 ID
FW Dispatcher (#2) : 2 ID
FW Dispatcher (#3) : 3 missile
FW Defender (#4) : 4 melees
FW Defender (#5) : 3 melees
FW Wolf Master (#6) : 2 ID
FW Vindicator (#7) : 2 melees
FW Devastator (#8) : 4 missile
FW Assailer (#9) : 3 missile
FW Bear Master (#10) : 4 save
FW Magi (#11) : 3 ID

Magic : 18


And now, a maneuver roll, loaded to the brink with modifier of every possible types :
Quote:

Maneuver modifier :
* 6 malus to the roll
* Roll multiplied by 2
* Roll divided by 4
* Terrain effect : roll multiplied by 2
* Disaster effect : roll divided by 2
* 4 bonus to the roll
FW Dispatcher (#1) : 1 melees
FW Dispatcher (#2) : 2 fly
FW Dispatcher (#3) : 2 ID
FW Defender (#4) : 4 melees
FW Defender (#5) : 2 ID
FW Wolf Master (#6) : 2 maneuver
FW Vindicator (#7) : 4 fly
FW Devastator (#8) : 2 save
FW Assailer (#9) : 4 Volley
FW Bear Master (#10) : 4 save
FW Magi (#11) : 4 Cantrip

* Cantrip 4
Maneuver : 10


If you see error in the example, point them out, since modifier to dice are a bit ... computer-unfriendly.

There is already two bugs that I don't know how to root out :
* if your army have two different racial multiplier (the only example I know is dwarves + treefolk on highland on counter maneuver roll), and there is maneuver malus, the maneuver malus is removed after doubling, not before.
For example, if you make a counter-maneuver at a highland with -4 penalty, and you roll 4 dwarves maneuver and 4 treefolk maneuver, you will have a final total of 12 (16-4) instead of 8 ((8-4)*2)
* if your army have a penalty to his roll, a racial doubling, and every result from the non-doubling dice are normal result SAI (like Fly for example), the penalty will be substracted from thoses SAI first, leading to better result than normally possible.
For example, if dwarves on highland with frostwing roll 4 dwarves maneuver and 4 frotwing fly, and there is a -4 penalty, the roller will give a final result of 8, because the penalty will have been taken on the fly SAI instead of the non-fly but doubled maneuver.

The first one seem bearable since it's so rare, but the second one is a bit more troublesome.
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chuckpint
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:07 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Remember that the modifiers are always in the order of: subtract (don't go
below zero), divide (round down), multiply, racial (convert), add.

Don't forget, a lot of SAIs that work in most rolls don't work in a maneuver roll (like Cantrip). And SAIs are only modified by terrain effects. Let me break down that last "loaded" maneuver roll: normal maneuver = 6, SAI maneuver = 6. So subtract 6 from the normal results = 0. Divide normal results by 8(?) = 0, divide SAI results by 2 (minor terrain) 6 / 2 = 3. Multiply normal results by 2 = 0, terrain multiply SAI 3 * 2 = 6 SAI maneuver, (no racial), add 4 = 10. So your final result is 10.

Your example of Dwarves and Treefolk at a Highland counter-maneuver would be: (8 - 4) x 2 = 8. However, take that same example at a Flatland. Dwarves don't double. So you get anything from 4 to 8 depending on which results are subtracted from. Smart player subtracts the 4 from the Dwarf results, letting the Treefolk results double. So your first bug doesn't exist.

Your second bug also doesn't exist. You cannot modify the Fly SAI results by any effect in the game currently that subtracts. So you have to subtract from the normal (Dwarf) results, and leave the Fly results separate.

So the program (just as live players do) has to total normal and SAI results in separate columns.
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You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Diceā„¢ sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Diceā„¢, 20,000 Daemon Diceā„¢, and others (too many to count).
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TheLazyhase
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:36 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the cantrip, the bug was that I mistakenly thought that maneuver was an action, which it isn't. I have fixed that. Thanks.

It's implemented in this order for now :
base icons
subtract (not under 0)
divide (spell, SAI, breath)
divide (other effect that can affect SAI, like terrains)
round down
multiply (spell, SAI, breath)
multiply (other effect that can affect SAI, like terrains)
racial multiply
racial convert
addition

which seem to be the good one, even if it's a bit more detailled

chuckpint wrote:
So the program (just as live players do) has to total normal and SAI results in separate columns.


(to clarify : the two bugs I point are bug that are in my soft, not bug in the rule)

I have 3 fly, 3 maneuver. I divide by two because of a catastrophe. I have 1 SAI maneuver, 1 regular maneuver ? I had understood that rounding was done on the total, leading to 3 maneuver after rounding.

And implementing SAI icon and regular icon counted separetely but being rounded together give me trouble (that's why my simulator have the bug), especially since I have to count them by race and by SAI/regular icon

(good thing is, doing that make me discover a lot of rules I had wrong when playing :p)
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chuckpint
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:11 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the effect affects both normal and SAI results, then they are done together. Since currently that is only terrain effects (major or minor), you only have to do that. Your proposed flow looks like it would handle that just fine. BTW, both Cliff and I are programmers. And I'm sure a fair number of our active players on the forums are programmers. So we understand the problem of programming those nuances.
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You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Diceā„¢ sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Diceā„¢, 20,000 Daemon Diceā„¢, and others (too many to count).
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TheLazyhase
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:59 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be honest, I will certainly not look at thoses two bugs too hard until I have something useable enough, since they are pretty cornercase and require a lot of thought to correct them.

Another thing I have to correct are multi-icon roll, like Dragon roll and some spell avoidance roll. On thoses, ID icon (that count as one of the needed icon) give one of each instead, while it need to ask what the player want to get.
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TheLazyhase
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:00 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mixed and combined rolls are working !

(what I call a mixed roll is when multiples types of icon do the same effect, like a charge-augmented combat roll, while I call combination roll when the icon are used for different effect, like dragon defence roll or Tidal Wave roll - I know both are named combination roll in the rulebook, but there is a fundamental difference for the computer : one need human input for ID icon and versatiles SAI like Fly, not the other)

First example, a dragon defence roll :
Quote:

FW Dispatcher (#1) : 2 fly
FW Dispatcher (#2) : 2 fly
FW Magi (#3) : 2 magic
FW Defender (#4) : 2 ID
FW Defender (#5) : 2 ID
FW Wolf Master (#6) : 3 maneuver
FW Wolf Master (#7) : 2 save

* 4 icon to choose between Melee, Missile, Save
Placeholder - here human have to choose between icon type
0 melee obtained
0 missile obtained
6 save obtained

The results are given with no choice done on what ID icon will do

Note that fly are automatically defaulted to save, since maneuver do nothing on the roll.

Now, a Tidal Wave spell roll :

Quote:

FW Dispatcher (#1) : 2 fly
FW Dispatcher (#2) : 4 missile
FW Magi (#3) : 3 ID
FW Defender (#4) : 4 melees
FW Defender (#5) : 3 melees
FW Wolf Master (#6) : 3 melees
FW Wolf Master (#7) : 2 ID

* 7 icon to choose between Maneuver, Save
Placeholder - here human have to choose between icon type
0 maneuver obtained
0 save obtained

Here, you can see that ID icon are restricted to only Maneuver and Save, and consequently merged with fly icons

Edit : as a side note, the fly icon code have gone from the shortest SAI to the longest because of combination roll :p
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:48 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheLazyhase wrote:

(since my day job is actually IT engineer, I have a good confidence on the technical side, and a not-so-good confidence on the motivation side, which is the reason for absence of promises and everything)


As Chuck mentioned, we both program (though slightly different kinds). I have a Masters in CS so I have all the ability. its just that putting food on the table is a higher priority.

As I hinted at in the other thread, once you get into modifers. There are a lot of human decisions that will have to be made.

Also, once you get a functioning script. It can be converted and integrated into our webUI if you wish. I have part of a die roller, but it never went beyond the utility stage due to time and complexity.
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TheLazyhase
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:03 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

cliffwiggs wrote:
As Chuck mentioned, we both program (though slightly different kinds). I have a Masters in CS so I have all the ability. its just that putting food on the table is a higher priority.


I understand ; I didn't try to mean I am specially gifted, more that I have a bit more experience than PHP online tutorial.

(also, computer science is a big field ; I happen to be specialized in web game already, which is significantly different from, say, integrated chip or kernel)

cliffwiggs wrote:
Also, once you get a functioning script. It can be converted and integrated into our webUI if you wish. I have part of a die roller, but it never went beyond the utility stage due to time and complexity.


Next week-end I plan to put the code in github (and/or your personnal git repository if you have one). I am experienced with git as versionning tool, and I think it can be significantly easier to hand out code. And if memory serve me well, github can be used to retrieve code even without knowing anything about git, so nobody will be required to learn git (even in CS, not everybody use versionning, and not everybody that use versioning use - or like - git Wink).
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:17 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smile

I understand and agree.

Chuck does more of the lower level stuff.

I've been forced into corporate programming, so more form than content.

So I get paid to do human process optimization from a corporate level, but I love dice and stats for fun. I also dabble in web and tablet and mobile for fun, but those are usually coder-ware. i.e. by coders, for coders and not for general distribution.

If you have experience doing web games, then once you are done with this project we may be able to do some stuff together.

and I don't use GIT within my day job and they ask I used SVN for source control. But I'm dangerous enough i can pull from your GIT once you post it.
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chuckpint
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:33 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use both GIT and SVN all the time. No reason to setup GIT (or SVN) on SFR's server at this point. I haven't used gibhub at this point, but I've used Source Forge a lot. So just let us know the project link, I can look at it from there. I setup an account there (chuckpint).
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First Place at the first ever Daemon Diceā„¢ sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Diceā„¢, 20,000 Daemon Diceā„¢, and others (too many to count).
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:44 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

you are so proactive.

I was gonna wait until a few successes were shown and then go pull the code. Wink
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TheLazyhase
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:28 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, finally I have created the repository : https://github.com/TheLazyHase/dragon_dice_simulator

Only for technically-oriented people, and I have put most of the todo and the future goal in the readme
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:32 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see you've chosen to hard code the dice faces, etc.

Do you have a database of them already or I can easily export you a data dump from the online web browser one.
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TheLazyhase
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:48 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I don't have a database for the dices. It will soon be pretty useful, since tomorrow I will be connecting the ORM to the army maker. The current army maker was a placeholder.

(by the way, you use mysql for the site ?)
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chuckpint
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:04 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, we use mysql for a number of things, not the least of which is this forum.
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You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Diceā„¢ sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Diceā„¢, 20,000 Daemon Diceā„¢, and others (too many to count).
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:24 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you want to use our database structure or define your own?
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