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A poll for 2013
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In 2013, which would you rather have:
new products to be released
65%
 65%  [ 15 ]
Existing products to be immediately reprinted
34%
 34%  [ 8 ]
Users Voted : 23
Total Votes : 23
This poll has expired.
Detailed Results

Author Message
loligarchy
common
Stockholder



Joined: 01 Oct 2012
Posts: 251
Location: Fresno, CA

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:53 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

So we're probably talking about third or fourth quarter. That is a bit more of a sticky wicket.
Since we're getting the elves, I would assume we're talking about something entirely new, along the lines of the dragoncrusader (in that it would be a completely original design) which does muddy the issue a touch.
Now the elves are going to keep collectors and new players happy and buying them for a fair while. I'm still picking up one or two dwarves every few weeks and still haven't gotten a behemoth and really will continue until I get one via some method or other.
My vote still leans toward new product, and this is coming from someone that has plans to collect at least a full complement of every race and has some distance to go with the vast majority of them, so I am likely to be affected by this in some manner.
Of course I don't know your numbers but will echo the sentiment that whatever looks like it will generate the most revenue is what I would prefer you pursue.
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Blindfury
dragonfoal



Joined: 24 Nov 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:33 pm GMT    Post subject: re-new product Reply with quote

It also depends on how you want the game to grow. Increasing the player base will generate more funds for the company. That’s hard to do though if a gencon attendee plays a demo, loves the game, and then finds themselves forced to choose between eBay and paying double price for one of the starter box races. My group has spent at least $600 in the last 3 months on eBay because kickers weren’t available for certain armies. That’s money SFR could have had. A starting player wants selection, much like someone trying to collect a newly released magic set. Kickers are the most cost effective way to obtain a playable selection of a single race.
I guess the question is what’s going to fit the company’s long term goals, leveraging their existing players (in which case new product) or building a stock from which they can expand the customer base (reprint.)
Would it be possible to do some small print runs of a variety of races, not a full run but enough so small amounts of reprints would show up every 3-6 months? I can certainly understand not wanting a bunch of unsold product sitting around tying up capitol and holding back game development.
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cliffwiggs
SFR Treasurer
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Joined: 25 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:22 pm GMT    Post subject: Re: re-new product Reply with quote

Blindfury wrote:
n the last 3 months on eBay because kickers weren’t available for certain armies.
Might I ask which kickers?

Quote:
Would it be possible to do some small print runs of a variety of races, not a full run but enough so small amounts of reprints would show up every 3-6 months?
Let me 'open then kimono' a little. The print runs we do ARE the minimum print runs. So unfortunately there is no other option.

Just like a family budget, we are limited by cash flow. At home, would I like to buy a new car every 6 months? Yes, but I don't have the cash flow to do it. At SFR, would I like to produce a new expansion every six months? Yes, but I don't have the cash flow for it. So how do these other companies produce expansions so quickly? They do it on credit. Why do those companies disappear after 18 months? They did it on credit. They over produced and had too much of their cash tied up in product they couldn't sell fast enough. Does this really happen? Well, TSR went out of business and many people blame the Firewalkers...

So, the Elves are going to be very delayed because we rejected the samples of the new dice (twice). We choose to place quality over timeframe. I'd rather have them be right than quick.
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DEEPBLUEB2
monster
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Joined: 20 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:32 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well this is a tough one,
as I really don't know if the 5th monsters are to be added to the SFR-starters...
since those need to be reprinted...or are they?


I want to see the 5th monsters...so...

new it is.
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chuckpint
White Dragon
SFR President
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Joined: 10 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 7:36 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

We've said this before..... Dwarves, Goblins, Coral Elves, and Lava Elves, once they are out as kickers, we will not be remaking those starters. We will always have 2-player starters, it's just not clear in our crystal ball which races will be in them in the far future. For the near future (at least until sometime in 2014), we have the same starters we have now.

For all the people that have said they want to buy directly from SFR in order to support us the best, we really appreciate that. You don't have to have a degree in finance in order to figure out that if we sell our product directly, we make the most profit that way. And the more profit we have, the more new products that come out. As Cliff said, most other companies borrow to in order to come out with tons of new stuff. Then they go under when they can't pay back their loans. We nearly went under in 2004 because of that same problem. Right after that was when Cliff and I took over, and we vowed to never make that mistake. So bottom line: we are growing, but slowly. Help us grow and we will make more dice. It's really that simple. And BTW, go see the topic on becoming a stockholder. For $100, you can become part of this company. You not only get a say-so in the running of the company, you get some behind the scenes look at what we are doing.
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Denimwizard
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:35 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chuck we pretty much do the same with our small business. We do not take out loans instead part of our profits is reinvested back into the company to buy better tools and supplies. So I understand growing slow and steady.
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Blindfury
dragonfoal



Joined: 24 Nov 2012
Posts: 22
Location: Cockeysville Maryland

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:42 pm GMT    Post subject: Re: re-new product Reply with quote

cliffwiggs wrote:
Blindfury wrote:
n the last 3 months on eBay because kickers weren’t available for certain armies.
Might I ask which kickers?

Quote:
Would it be possible to do some small print runs of a variety of races, not a full run but enough so small amounts of reprints would show up every 3-6 months?
Let me 'open then kimono' a little. The print runs we do ARE the minimum print runs. So unfortunately there is no other option.

Just like a family budget, we are limited by cash flow. At home, would I like to buy a new car every 6 months? Yes, but I don't have the cash flow to do it. At SFR, would I like to produce a new expansion every six months? Yes, but I don't have the cash flow for it. So how do these other companies produce expansions so quickly? They do it on credit. Why do those companies disappear after 18 months? They did it on credit. They over produced and had too much of their cash tied up in product they couldn't sell fast enough. Does this really happen? Well, TSR went out of business and many people blame the Firewalkers...

So, the Elves are going to be very delayed because we rejected the samples of the new dice (twice). We choose to place quality over timeframe. I'd rather have them be right than quick.


We specifically grabbed swamp stalkers and undead.
As for the budget and production bit, sounds fair. I wasn’t sure of the minimum batch size or how complicated the process is. I for one appreciate quality.
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cliffwiggs
SFR Treasurer
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Joined: 25 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:47 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its true that we haven't had those races as kickers for a long time because they've been starter races.

That isn't likely to change for another 18-24 months.

you just need someone who wants amazons and feral....
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ddicerc
rare
Public Relations Director
Esteemed Author



Joined: 25 Jan 2005
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Location: East Brunswick, NJ, USA

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:38 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I might add that no one who "works" for SFR, and no stockholder, is getting rich off the company. There is very little compensation for the amount of time that Chuck and Cliff (and Tiffany!) put into the company. Those of us who invested in SFR did so to see the game and the company move forward. I am a small original investor who also added another small amount later, and I can say it wasn't for the great rate of return. Smile But we got Treefolk, and the Dragonslayers and Crusaders/Zealots, and Eldarim, and the last two terrain combos, and many other products back in print...it was worth it. AND we got Dragon Dice™ into distribution, even if distributors sometimes pretend we aren't, so we're gradually getting this wonderful gamer back into people's hands.

(If I wasn't clear above, Chuck and Cliff deserve a HUGE thank you from the DD community. If I ever hit the lottery, I'd buy up the company, but only if Chuck and Cliff kept their jobs!)
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DialFforFunky
rare



Joined: 11 May 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:58 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

ddicerc wrote:
If I wasn't clear above, Chuck and Cliff deserve a HUGE thank you from the DD community.


Very true. If it wasn't for the infernal cost of the flight ticket, I'd be coming over every GenCon and give everyone a big hug for their fantastic efforts.


F
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CalicoCorsair
dragonsteed



Joined: 06 Dec 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:55 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think any of us ever thought or ever imagined (or said in any of these threads) that we think anyone is getting rich off of the products. Smile We know that they are working hard.

It's just -- kinda difficult to REALLY vote on something when we don't know what it is exactly -- and especially when there are still parts of the product out of production in methods that people would prefer to buy it in.

Which is why I still support making sure everything that's intended to be in the game be in stock before focusing on anything new. Smile
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Urfaes
dragonmount



Joined: 03 Dec 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:04 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

ddicerc wrote:
If I wasn't clear above, Chuck and Cliff deserve a HUGE thank you from the DD community. If I ever hit the lottery, I'd buy up the company, but only if Chuck and Cliff kept their jobs!


They do, and I do that by trying to purchase product from the store. Every dollar I spend on ebay or Amazon is a dollar less that goes back into Dragon Dice™, and that's my primary concern. I want to give them money to support my hobby, but it's challenging when it isn't available.
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TheLazyhase
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:37 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like to point out two importants things :

* there is already a lot of buyable thing at TSR proper. 2 races aren't in stock on 13, so there is quite a bit of choice. Even without that, there is generic extensions which are useful.

* buying Dragon Dice™ anywhere is good at the very least for the game (since it incite people to actually stock thoses items and/or raise awareness about its existence), and can sometime lead to benefice for SFR (since the product have been bought from them at a point)
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Urfaes
dragonmount



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 5:46 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buying Dragon Dice™ anywhere is good for the game but not entirely so for the company, which is what I would like to support. For example, if I buy a lot of Lava Elves off ebay, and those were TSR originals, SFR got nothing. Out of print kickers, such as Swamp Stalkers and Undead, are an issue I'd rather see addressed now instead of two years from now. Elsewise, the new players will either buy multiple starters and sell the remainder on ebay (which could have gone to just buying kickers) or just skip the starters and make their purchases from ebay anyway (which could have gone to SFR).

In short, while the newer materials may have been purchased from SFR, that is not entirely the case.
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AC
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:53 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps I've missed an explicit response, but what precisely would reprinting entail? Does this mean simply refreshing the stock of those kickers (and starters?) currently available but perhaps running low?

Not to derail the thread, and I understand it was probably meant casually, but I would suggest it's not strictly accurate to say that Firewalkers put TSR out of business. As funny as that would be (especially if you envision, say, a bunch of elemental humanoids hired as terrible interns who accidentally incinerate years of fiscal data), and while Dragon Dice™ expansion may have been a proverbial straw, TSR's doom was a long time coming.

I am not a former stockholder, but I did follow the company's demise fairly closely. By all accounts, Williams ran the company less like a business and more like an investment portfolio (not inconsistent with her background) of recreational purpose. That is to say: no assets were reserved against risk. While the company was making money, it was not financially "healthy," in the same sense a real estate market operating on a bubble is not financially healthy. By the mid-90s, TSR was badly overextended, and in spite of sales continued to fall behind the competition. When some of their ships (such as Dragon Dice™) were lost upon Goodwin Sands, as it were, they found themselves looking down the barrel of insolvency and sold out to WotC, which used the brand for a few more years, then dissolved it entirely.

The non-electronic gaming industry admits very little flexibility for the dedicated company (neither restructuring nor asset transfer are really viable). One must be a complex giant, like Hasbro, which will gleefully churn out low-grade schlock, ready to shutter the doors the day it runs in the red; or be a fringe independent operating under a high amount of risk (hence the numerous short-lived entities); or be a "labor of love." We are very fortunate to have SFR.


Last edited by AC on Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:27 am GMT; edited 1 time in total
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chuckpint
White Dragon
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:28 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reprinting simply means taking a product that we already have, and making more of them.

Actually there is a thread here that has some interesting details of TSR's demise. Dragon Dice™ was not the cause of that, if anything, it kept TSR alive for a couple of years more!
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First Place at the first ever Daemon Dice™ sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Dice™, 20,000 Daemon Dice™, and others (too many to count).
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:41 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuckpint wrote:
Dragon Dice™™ was not the cause of that, if anything, it kept TSR alive for a couple of years more!
which sadly is not the impression some gamers have. They've commented as they walk part the booth at Gencon. They are wrong in their knowledge, but perception is reality...
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TheLazyhase
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:57 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

cliffwiggs wrote:
which sadly is not the impression some gamers have. They've commented as they walk part the booth at Gencon. They are wrong in their knowledge, but perception is reality...


I would not be sure it's their impression. It's more that people love anecdotes and rumors, and when they see something that they are not interested in, they recall the anecdotes. (that said, I would be interested to see from where the rumor come)

Don't forget that mosts RPG player now have not know TSR at all. Heck, even D&D 3.0 is starting to be an old geezer thing now. And, at least in Europa, the death of TSR have not been seen as a bad thing since WotC have done a satisfactory job
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