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Composition of Army - Coral Elves + or - Firewalkers?

 
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CalicoCorsair
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:42 pm GMT    Post subject: Composition of Army - Coral Elves + or - Firewalkers? Reply with quote

3 heavy melee Firewalker Rares
2 Fireshadow
3 magic Coral Elf rares
3 magic Coral Elf uncommon
1 gold medallion

This did not work in a three player game, but apparently my army was the weaker one.

So I ask, why is that combination bad? With the rares/uncommon/monster combinations I would have thought it would be harder to kill me off, and I would get more favorable results. However, I was playing against a lava elf player and a frostwing player and just got attritioned down to half and then my home terrain got stolen (a coastlands) before I could do anything.

I did start my home terrain out with the bulk of my magic users, and the bulk of the heavy melee at the frostwing's home, one at the terrain which I picked was a red/blue vortex.

Any thoughts? I'm really struggling trying to find a good balance of coral elves, playing them by themselves has given me issues and apparently now, even with the idea from someone to play them with firewalkers heavy melee, I'm still having issues.

Am I doing something wrong taking mostly rares/uncommons? Should I be taking more diverse forces? I had thought that might help me more to do rares and uncommons instead of commons, but I dunno.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:13 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see a gryphon... Wink

If playing Coral elves...it really is a nice addition.
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TheLazyhase
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:21 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, he already have two nice mosntr. I don't see the griffon as all that useful when you have fireshadow. And the phenix also seem vastly superior to the griffon for me.

Also, one game tend to not be enough. You may have been unlucky. You may have badly used your magic. Maybe the two player have joined force against you ; fireshadow, like troll, sometime do that. Your army is not a resilient one, which make bad start problematic, too.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:34 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

First off, the fireshadow counts as a mage, so you have more than 50% magic in that army.

Second, sometimes you can do nothing wrong and still lose.

Without knowing more about the game its hard to know if you were just unlucky or made bad choices or have a bad army design.

You don't have a lot of maneuver in that army. Is that what hurt you?

It is also a melee heavy army, did you do a lot of head to head fighting? Maybe you got average save rolls while they got higher than normal save rolls. thus the attrition was against you.
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CalicoCorsair
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:39 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tbh, I didn't know the monsters counted as magic since we're all still learning the games, so I'm going off of what is actually in the magic columns, and not counting the monsters. Is there a place in the rules book where I can find that info for future reference? Smile

This would be good for our group to know since we're still learning and just last night my friend did a goblin army as well that wound up being over 50% magic and no one noticed. lol Very Happy

I basically wound up with things at crappy terrain : Coastlands Temple at the home where I put my coral elf magic, but it rolled a non magic face, and then another player put their lava elves there and smashed me, since I didn't want to give that terrain up and was trying to out maneuver.

Melee with fireshadows at a frostwing home terrain that kept going between a magic and missile face - I was doing ok there until he got it to magic and then yeeeh. I kept that army portion alive a bit and wound up moving them to another terrain probably too late I think? After there were dragons on the board and ouch they hurt!

I'm just wondering if using more rares/uncommons/monsters is a good way to go. AND tactics on combining corals and firewalkers.?
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TheLazyhase
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:09 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

CalicoCorsair wrote:
I'm just wondering if using more rares/uncommons/monsters is a good way to go. AND tactics on combining corals and firewalkers.?


I don't think so. Common and uncommon give you better amount of icon per health ; rare and monster give SAI.

First thing first : if you have 50% of your force as mage on a terrain, and the face is not magic, you'd better retreat immediatly. You can cast magic from reserves anyway.

After thinking a bit about it, if we start as a coral elf basis, the main thing Firewalker add are primaly wonderful monster (fireshadow and phenix). Their mages are also a bit more focused, but I don't find their heavy infantry to be all that good compared to the coral elve one.

Also, firewalker and Coral elves have in common to be pretty fragile. Because of that, it's less synergic than what you may believe.

In fact, my two main pick to replace the heavy firewalker would be either the Treefolk heavy (who have two smite x3 and some saves) or the coral elve "light" infantry, the Herald. They generate more melee result on average, they maneuver very well, and they are reasonably solid (a 4 counter save), and are nigh indestructible on coastland, with 2/3 chance of saves.

You can also use common melee coral elves, but because they have melee and missile face, I find them hard to use. The phenix work well with them, since he also have melee and missile face, but melee/missile mix is harder to use, so you may want something more straightforward.

Of course, it depend on your collection. You may very well not have treefolk at all.
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CalicoCorsair
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:02 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

True, you get more icon per health - BUT rares and uncommons are harder to kill with those one point annoying spells. Conversely, they're harder to bring back from the dua if they are killed too, so I imagine it's a trade off.

I actually have been thinking about trying treefolk, as my husband had gotten himself a collection of treefolk that he'll let me use as well. Smile

I had always thought about doing Firewalkers with Corals due to the fact that they share blue and have some kick ass of their own. Sort of like the Coral elves got them some mercenaries to help fight. Wink
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TheLazyhase
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:37 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

CalicoCorsair wrote:
I had always thought about doing Firewalkers with Corals due to the fact that they share blue and have some kick ass of their own. Sort of like the Coral elves got them some mercenaries to help fight. Wink


I love firewalkers. Especially their mosnter, the fireshadow being one of the best monster ever. It's just that they are very much like the Coral elves, so they are a good option if you don't have enough Coral Elves and want to concentrate on their strength, and a bad one if you have trouble with Coral Elve playstyle.

They also share a lack of save, except that Firewalker never convert their maneuver to save, meaning they are even easier to destroy. Because of this, and mixed icon type, Firewalker is for me one of the harder to master race.

Treefolk tend to be very different from Coral Elves : they have trouble maneuvering, but they just. don't. die. And the Noble Willow have a nasty combo between his Wild Growth SAI and dragonkin invocation from your mage : you can promote the dragonkin, which mean a Wild Growth face can somtime be a 12 magic cantrip.

That's why I think it's an easier route to strengthen your army : it's easier to rely on some Noble Willow and Lady Nereid to soak damages than relying on the easier movement and awesome magic from the firewalker.
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DialFforFunky
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:16 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the common traps with taking blue magic users is to take a home terrain that has has the blue element in it. This is especially true for the Coral Elves, since they also get their racial ability there. Even though the doubling and the racial ability might seem nice, the fact that there is but a single magic icon on the terrain makes your coral elf mages waste their time on your home terrain more often than not.
The way I see it, there are two solutions to this problem. The first is to simply take a non-blue terrain. Though this might sound blasphemous in the ears of most Coral Elves, taking a Feyland drastically increases your chances of getting a better starting position. Especially if you stick tot the rare mages, as for them it really doesn't matter - they do not have any maneuver icons to benefit from their racial in the first place.
The second option is one I think is even more interesting. Instead of putting your mages on your home terrain like most players are accustomed to do, you might instead put them at the frontier. In this case, you actually do want a terrain with the blue element as your home. This is where you'll put your Firewalkers. The great thing about this is that you are absolutely sure that you can make use of their racial ability.
With this option, you actually plan on losing the horde roll. Chose a nice special terrain as the frontier, such as the Coastland Vortex. This terrain will be especially strong for you, as it has several bonusses: more magic icons, enables racial (use at least some lower health mages to make use of this) and a very strong 8th face. This puts your opponent in a catch 22 - either he grants you the strong terrain, or he grants you the tactically superior first turn (the terrain flight capitalizes on this nicely). If he gives you first turn, you can quickly retreat from the unappealing frontier. This isn't all too bad, as Coral Elves are one of the better reserve-casting races out there. The can grant both saves and maneuvers, making your Firewalker force quite flexible while retaining power. The firewalkers can now choose to either make your home a nice accommodation for your mages in the following turn (if you have a realistic chance of getting to the 8th/1st) or take the fight to the opposing home terrain (if the opponent got a bad terrain roll or you think you can outmaneuver him). And if your opponent does not give you first turn, you should be relatively happy as well. You've got the frontier you want, and a home that is both flexible and relatively safe.

All in all, I think Firewalkers and Coral Elves could combine quite nicely. A trick you might not expect is that Burning Shields and Blizzard combine nicely, as the saves are not halved. Sentinels are especially well suited for fighting under blizzards, as the Smites are unaffected as well (and the firewalkers don't mind a bit of protection). Another thing you might want to keep an eye on is getting your Sentinels on one of your own 8th faces. Since the 8th face doubles saves, the Sentinels deal 6 melee damage when they roll saves at your 8th.


Sorry for the slightly chaotic post. I didn't have the time to organise my thought too much, but I think you are on an exciting track. Good luck with your next battles!


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Urfaes
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:49 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Being the lava elf player, I can say she was heavily out maneuvered at the home terrain. Her mages were up against Wyvern Riders, Duelists, and Scouts with Winged Sandals. Couple that with a very fortunate home terrain starting at 6, unopposed, and I got the first 8th face relatively quickly. From there, my mages summoned Dragons and reinforced my horde army.

Originally, the army design was to captialize on the Firewalker shield ability. So, we started with heavy melee; hindsight being what it is, I'd probably go toward the cavalry for added maneuvers and retaining saves. Pick a terrain, get the 8th face then transfer the mages to whichever terrain that is.

With Firewalkers having terrain flight, they're one of the few armies that I see sitting at the home terrain, capturing the 8th then moving to the second terrain right after. What I'd probably try is Coral Elf mages, Firewalker cav and capture an 8th face immediately. Deploy as normal then retreat back to reserves turn one and reinforce at the home on turn 2. Unless, of course, you can take advantage of fortunate first turn terrain rolls or terrain flight if the horde (your cav) is at a blue terrain.

Cav for maneuvers, maneuvers count as saves for the mages and saves generate melee results off the Firewalkers. If the terrain starts at 1, summon Dragonfoals and Dragonmounts. If the terrain is 2, move it down. If the terrain is higher, push for the 8th. In short, you need that 8th face, ASAP, to take advantage of double saves and maneuvers off the mages.

I'd also not use a tower. Ever. That's what the Frontier is for. Switch the terrain to a Coastland City and recruit/promote which is three less magic to use on your DUA. If you want to be a pain, get a Coastland Grove. Sure, you can't double magic ... neither can anyone else. And your BUA becomes a recycling bin for your City. Your mages should be safe at home anyhow; the Grove will be defended by the Firewalkers which won't have any magic anyway.
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 9:02 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

BTW - here is the second you wanted to know about the rules. This is from near the beginning of the rulebook. I've added bold for the sections that stand out...

Quote:
Step 1: Decide Total Force Size
Players agree on the size of their total force in the game. To do this, agree on a number of health points for each
player’s total forces, then bring components (units or magic items) totaling that many health points to the game. Good
total force sizes are 18, 24, 36 or 60 health points. Unless a particular game format specifically allows, the number of
health points consisting of magic users can be no more than half of the total number of health points (rounded down)
in each player’s total forces. Any component with a magic or Cantrip icon counts as a magic user or magic-generating
item.
Thus, in a total force size of 36 health points, no more than 18 health points can be components with a magic or
Cantrip icon.
If playing with a single starter box split between two people, each would have 18 health. The suggested way to play is
to split the armies by race.
Note: Components with at least one magic icon have a magic point value equal to their health. Exception: the Undead
rare light magic troop (Vampire), even though it is a 3-health unit, has a magic point value of 2 because it only has one
face with a magic icon. Monsters and artifacts are covered under the following special rule. If a monster or artifact has
a magic icon or Cantrip SAI, it does not necessarily count as having a magic point value of 4. When determining the
magic point value of a monster or artifact, each face with a normal magic icon counts as one point and each face with
a Cantrip, Create Fireminions, or other potentially magic-generating SAI counts as two points. The magic point value
of a monster or artifact is the sum of these values, up to a total of four points.
Example: The Fireshadow has one Cantrip face (two points) and two Create Fireminions faces (four points). It has a magic point
value of 4 (the maximum).
Example: The Sprite Swarm has three normal magic faces (three points). It has a magic point value of 3.
Example: The Flying Carpet artifact has one normal magic face (one point). It has a magic point value of 1.

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TheLazyhase
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:39 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dial, don't forget you can put your mage on campaign army, so you can have a maneuver-heavy horde, choose your coastland as campagn and have mage on it.

DialFforFunky wrote:

All in all, I think Firewalkers and Coral Elves could combine quite nicely. A trick you might not expect is that Burning Shields and Blizzard combine nicely, as the saves are not halved. Sentinels are especially well suited for fighting under blizzards, as the Smites are unaffected as well (and the firewalkers don't mind a bit of protection). Another thing you might want to keep an eye on is getting your Sentinels on one of your own 8th faces. Since the 8th face doubles saves, the Sentinels deal 6 melee damage when they roll saves at your 8th.


Except that fireshield is too unreliable. No firewalker have more than 1/5 chance of fire shield, so Blizzard will often hamper you as much as your opponent. It can be a nice bonus, but relying on it seem too risky for me.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:21 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't play a lot of firewalker but here's what I've learned about corals mostly:

The Coral elf light melee is in my opinion one of their absolute best units so I would suggest switching to using one or two of them, as they don't have any "wasted" faces on missiles and manuever quite well. Their only "weakness" is that they don't also have SAI manuevers. You have ready access to windwalks though so its close to the same thing.

One good thing about firewalkers and corals is that they both can support quite well from reserves, so don't be afraid to pull them back. Unfortunately that combination army doesn't have any units with rend, which is what really causes flashfire to shine. Nonetheless though, with plenty of defensive spells and wind walks at your disposal they can still be very good in reserves.
One thing I've been playing around with are mixing frostwing wolfpacks and/or rare calv with firewalker mages. The wolfpack has a 30% chance to reroll and 50% chance to generate melee results. Of course they only have a 20% chance to save, and basically get no racial, but a howl can theoretically be a great thing in the midst of a blizzard so there may be something there, I haven't tried out an army with corals, firewalkers and frostwings though so take that with a grain of salt.

If you want to really capitalize on blizzard, running Heralds and a dragonzealot (one of my favorite combinations) will make it so you have a lot of SAI attack icons so you're more likely to get through some damage and when you're sitting on bash and counterattack your opponent will think twice about trying their luck against you in return, and heaven forbid you manage to do this on a coastland, because your saving capability suddenly becomes pretty terrifying in addition to the reflective damage. Of course Heralds may be able to instill this fear in your opponent alone, so it just depends on your preference.

Finally a coastland castle or vortex is a good idea, and as others have said you can drop your mages on your frontier and double your chances of getting a magic face, plus they're just good to have.
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AC
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 5:36 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a fan of Firewalkers and I find that they combine with Coral Elves fairly well. A lot of people seem to disparage Firewalkers as "fragile," which to be reasonable must stem from their lack of defensive (Gold or Green) magic, since every non-mage has a Save face and their monsters tend to save well. Sure, Firewalkers don't save like the very toughest races, but nobody saves like the very toughest races. Give them Coral Elf mages, and you've got Green magic (as you did).

Before going on, I'll mention that, as was said, sometimes a good army just loses; it's the nature of the game.

Terrain: The reason to play Coral Elves at a Coastland is to bolster their survivability. The magic doubling is nice, but you can live with just Blue if you're looking for more Magic faces (as someone else suggested) and still want to give your Firewalkers a place from which to Terrain Fly. After all, matching a color on a Rare is going to average an extra 0.5 magic per die each roll. Enchanters don't have maneuvers, so they don't need to hang out at a Coastland if it's getting dangerous. That said, Coastland is handy if you make use of fast elves.

Unit selection: Also consider the Expeditioner (Light Rare) vs. the Sentinel (Heavy Rare); you sacrifice 3 Smite to gain 4 Counter, which works as Saves that can't be reduced. In most respects, though, they're about the same. Firewalker Cavalry are not-so-hot; the Uncommon is slow for a Cav and the Rare is very up-and-down. Firewalker mages are awesome -- but they die easily. Solution? Put them at a Coastland with some Coral Elves. The Herald (Light Rare) and the Knight (Cav Uncommon) are very solid units, with 67% Melee, 50% Maneuver, and 67% Save at a Coastland for the former and 50/50/67 for the latter. Some people are afraid to mix mages (different races) but one can get good mileage out of a lot of little spells.

Summary: You might experiment with mixing races for both your melee/maneuver and your magic. This gives you the Selumari™ speed and Coastland/Green magic toughness along with the Firewalker punch and terrain-hopping.

Rare, Uncommon, or Common?: The essential balance has already been covered, but I'll throw this in as well: For some time, commons were the way to go, in part because having a lot of commons will produce a "smooth" results curve: You're more likely to get results you need, just less likely to get a lot of them, as compared to the same health value of rares, for whom results will be spikier (all or nothing).

Tactics: I'm all for sticking at a terrain and grinding it out, but you've got to know when to fold 'em. A terrain can usually be moved no more than one step per player every cycle of turns, so it's not the end of the world to retreat and regroup. If you are going to stand in to trade blows, let it be someone other than your mages, since you'll likely need them to recover from the carnage. Lastly, splitting your forces is a gamble. It's one I often advocate and it's not as terrible as some people think, but you will give up the safety of numbers.

Most of this was of course already said; I'm just offering agreement. Do note that my characterization of Firewalker Cavalry will be seen by many as overly kind. Do not use the Nightsbane (U) or Shadowchaser (C). The Rare will produce the same results as a Wyvern Rider, but the context is different. The 50% Save off a Highland makes the latter uncommonly butch for a Morehl™; employing the former may not be worth the cost of your army's dignity.


Last edited by AC on Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:28 am GMT; edited 1 time in total
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DEEPBLUEB2
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:47 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Well, he already have two nice mosntr. I don't see the griffon as all that useful when you have fireshadow. And the phenix also seem vastly superior to the griffon for me.



Well for one...the magic count is over 18 health...

drop some magic add a gryphon...
use the phoenix as well if you want...

as far as not useful...?

The main thing the gryphon provides is mobility,
since the army is lacking any gold...
plus when you ferry a gold medallion and a fireshadow...

anyways...

what's with the bashing of possitive suggestions?
I'm helping a new player by suggesting proven ways to help their army.


Give the gryphon a shot... you'll be surprised at "how many ways" it can be useful.
-sigh-

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TheLazyhase
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:00 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

DEEPBLUEB2 wrote:

Give the gryphon a shot... you'll be surprised at "how many ways" it can be useful.


My opinion is that it's a strictly less good phoenix. Ferry is one of the worst SAI, because it's way too random : when you need to go somewhere, you need to try something non-maneuver, which can be deadly to you. When you don't need to go somewhere, it's two wasted face, since it does not count as maneuver

And 8 total health, including a subpar monster, tend to not be enough by itself, so it's usually useful only as a last chance to make survive some units or for very risky victory stealing.

If you need some way to path, use path. With a Magi crown or a flatland standing stone, for example. Don't try to use the gryphon, it's just too unreliable.

If you need a monster with save and maneuver, and you want to be coral elve only, the gryphon may be used, because he's not as bad as, say, the frost ogre. But it's not very good either.

(I "bash" your advice for only one reason : I think it's a bad one. Nothing personal and no persecution here :p. The fact it is "proven" is not true for me, since it have proven to be unreliable for ferry and subpar for icon generation in my experience)
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:10 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laughing


The gryphon is a great monster...
its secret is that ferry can be used in so many types of rolls...
similar to the troll...
as many players tend to gravitate towards.

Please allow a player find there own rhyme and reason...rather than condem an honset suggestion... which has been proven... (to me anyways)

A players asked for help...
I provided just that.

Like I said...give it a shot...
it's a proven winner.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:00 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally I'm a fan of the normal distribution curve. Granted that the commons aren't as punchy or as much fun as the rare dice, they do give a more predictable result. One distinct advantage of having a greater number of smaller dice is the ability to effectively split your armies between territory. Strong tactical forces can be split and effectively outmaneuvered if you force them to divide their dice. Also, the Firewalker ability to flit between blue territories makes them staggering reinforcements, saving you a full turn of movement.

I would lose one of the Fireshadows and one of the Sentinels in favor of additional Heavy Melee dice, say 2 Watchers (uncommon) and 3 Guardian (common).
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