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Daemon Diceā„¢ Rules 0.6b
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:06 pm GMT    Post subject: Daemon Diceā„¢ Rules 0.6b Reply with quote

Normally at 1am on the first of April, I would have something witty and entertaining to say... but I've been up too late getting this ready for you.

Version 0.6b of the rules are released for your review! I'm sure I will find something to fix as soon as I've slept, but maybe you can find them first.

This version of the rules takes into accounts several lessons learned while demo-ing/testing the rules at Pax East. So a BIG shout out to everyone who played over the weekend.

http://www.sfr-inc.com/DaemonDice_0.6b.pdf

Keep an eye out later this week for 0.7b
My goal for that version is final tweeks to balance for things like All Leg or All Mouth monsters or even All Lungs.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:40 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all, I thought we were going to get rid of the quotes around game terms. So "ray" would become ray. Quotes are fine when referencing sections of the rules like "Seven Symbols".

Roll: part c: Change the first sentence to simply: "Roll all your remaining active dice." It's incorrect as stated, because it leaves out minused, but adding that is just long and redundant.

Should spent dice become a game term?

Brain: last sentence: change attacked to attacker.

Tentacle needs to change "Suffer Grabs" to "Apply Grabs".

Should Multiplayer battles be in it's own section and "The Advanced Game" simply be the Breed Abilities? In any case, change "Basic Game" to "Two-player Game".

I'm sure I'll have more, that was just a quick 10 minute look.
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First Place at the first ever Daemon Diceā„¢ sealed starter tournament.
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:57 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuckpint wrote:
First of all, I thought we were going to get rid of the quotes around game terms. So "ray" would become ray. Quotes are fine when referencing sections of the rules like "Seven Symbols".
Yes, we did. I changed that in 17 places, looks like I missed six because they weren't circled on my edited copy. It's that kind of end to end proof read that I was worried about not having time for.

Quote:

Roll: part c: Change the first sentence to simply: "Roll all your remaining active dice." It's incorrect as stated, because it leaves out minused, but adding that is just long and redundant.

Should spent dice become a game term?

Brain: last sentence: change attacked to attacker.

Tentacle needs to change "Suffer Grabs" to "Apply Grabs".

Should Multiplayer battles be in it's own section and "The Advanced Game" simply be the Breed Abilities? In any case, change "Basic Game" to "Two-player Game".

I'm sure I'll have more, that was just a quick 10 minute look.

I'm sure you will find more. as I said i was VERY tired last night.

I'll look at all of these and post a new version (if I can do it fast enough I'll just replace the PDF on the website...) Either way I'll change it internally to be 0.6.1 so you can be sure you have downloaded a new verison.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:57 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

This looks like a rather elaborate April Fool's ploy here. >_> I won't believe for a second that we should be expecting rules 0.7b later this week. Now where's the 1-day kickstarter?

Without having looked at it, yet, a 2 page rulebook is incredible. Especially in comparison to Dragon Diceā„¢. It's nice that this will be much faster and easier to jump into.
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:00 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

This font is fairly small, so the printed one might be three or four pages. but its meant to be a much simpler game than dragondice. so its good that we met that goal.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:33 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

0.6.1b is posted (same file name)

if I get a chance today I'll do an end to end read myself, but my day is looking pretty full already. maybe late tonight.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:49 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plus doesn't read correctly. I think we want to change it to:
Plus counts as one point for initiative at the beginning of the game. After that, a plus can boost an attack making it harder to negate. A plus can also be used to boost a defense to match the pluses used to boost the attack. Alternately, it can be used to bring one stunned body part back into play.

Note: don't want to say that plus brings a stunned body part back into active play or SDA will think that it can be used right away rather than placing it into the spent pool.

Dodge should be changed to emphasize that it only works against rays and sweeps. One common confusion that I heard was about this. So I'd change the second sentence to say: "After that a dodge can be used to dodge a ray or sweep attack only."

Initiative: symbol should be "symbols". "all other rolls" should be "all other results".

Under Apply Foe's Minuses: We state the minus-ed dice cannot be rolled or used. But later we state that spent dice can be used to suffer damage. I know why we say they can't be used this turn, but I think makes it confusing. I'm torn between just dropping the "or used" or using some other terminology. However, after reading the part on Recovering, maybe it better to change it to "cannot be rolled and are out of play this turn."

Shell: should we change "negate" to "avoid"?

Advanced Game: perhaps state that Daemons can be any number of dice at 6 or more (everyone the same) in a paragraph there, and not in Multiplayer battles.

Rot Daemon: Seems backward that the rot happens at the beginning of the turn. Seems like it should happen at the end of the turn when it's just finished arraying attacks. That also means that in multiplayer games all the offense is one way.

Also, the way it reads, the Rot Daemon's player picks the die to rot. I propose to make it slightly less powerful, and let the defending player pick which die.

Here's a good one for multi-player battles: If a daemon is defended, are all it's grabs are released? I'd like to say yes. The daemon goes unconscious or something, and releases everything.
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You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Diceā„¢ sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Diceā„¢, 20,000 Daemon Diceā„¢, and others (too many to count).
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:36 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chuck, for now I'm going to just make your changes verbatum and then tomorrow during my plane ride to OC I will read the rules from start to finish.

chuckpint wrote:
Here's a good one for multi-player battles: If a daemon is defended, are all it's grabs are released? I'd like to say yes. The daemon goes unconscious or something, and releases everything.


The question I would have here is why would a daemon that is grabbing something ever be defeated? other than SDA doing it just because they can, why would I make myself lose just to hold onto something?

If we have to add some rules anyway, would it be better to put something in that says you HAVE to release something after minus but before rolling If it means a loss?

and and I forgot to put the end of turn 'defeat' check in. I'll do that tonight.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:50 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok, I lied. Here are some comments.

We are getting into a situation where dodge,avoid,negate are fuzzy terms. I know we changed them for the ease of demoing, but it creates a problem elsewhere when those terms are used NOT in reference to a dodge,block,deflect. I also feel funny says that a dodge dodges, but a block negates and a deflect avoids. Those either need to be game terms or not game terms.

On the apply minus, I added the word only, but in a slightly different place. It read okay to you?

On Rot, I changed it to the end of the turn, but it was worded purposely for the rot daemon to target the die. Do you feel that is too powerful?

On the 6 die daemons, I think I know what you want. It is just akward to word because then there are three things... no wait I got it. I can make a separate header and put in an obscure movie reference at the same time Smile

I'll post it in a minute... then its off to dinner (but not to my favorite vegas place, which closed...)
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:02 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

0.6.2b posted.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:48 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, looks good to me.

On the grabbed dice and defeated demon, my thoughts where along these lines:

Lets say at the beginning of your turn, you have 3 dice left to activate, plus a tentacle that has grabbed something. Then you start minusing, and there are 5 minuses. Nothing in the rules makes you have to let go with that tentacle. It makes no difference to you whether you let go or not, since you will lose either way. So if I had an option, I'd leave it grabbing just so that person couldn't use the grabbed die. However, I think if a daemon is defeated, it should not have any influence in the game, so it should let go. Without a clear rule, there is way to enforce that. Also when the whip comes into play, it's not a body part so there is really no reason to let go.
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First Place at the first ever Daemon Diceā„¢ sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Diceā„¢, 20,000 Daemon Diceā„¢, and others (too many to count).
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:41 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

An excellent example.

I think that statement would go into the 'Losing the game' section.

do we need to work the shield logo into this anywhere?

0.6.3 posted.

I'll post a demo mat if I get packed early at all.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:00 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is just a working copy for now. I'll do up the formal rules sheet with InDesign when we are ready. 2 versions: 8.5 x 11 for download, and something 4x5 for fan fold.
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First Place at the first ever Daemon Diceā„¢ sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Diceā„¢, 20,000 Daemon Diceā„¢, and others (too many to count).
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:01 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuckpint wrote:
This is just a working copy for now. I'll do up the formal rules sheet with InDesign when we are ready. 2 versions: 8.5 x 11 for download, and something 4x5 for fan fold.
Agreed, I'll need to start learning InDesign at that point for future changes.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:02 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

FYI - since I don't have dice with me, rather than just testing a few body parts, I've been working on a tool for testing any army.

This is also an interesting exercise in identifying all the real decision points within the game. Since my goal is to test min/max armies (13 of one die), most of the decision points become moot.

I should have that done tomorrow and then I can run a few simple simulations. (this also lays the groundwork for a software implementation Wink )

The next step would be identifying styles of play for those decision points. This is the type of pointless mathematical exercise I enjoy.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 8:41 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

This may or may not be the appropriate thread, but anyway: Any thought at this point as to future breed names? Specifically, "Lash" and "Fester" always struck me as odd, given that both are more frequently encountered as verbs than as nouns, while all the other breed names were the opposite, and that even in noun form, both refer to concrete objects, whereas the others are . . . shall we say, less easily handled.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:34 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh. Thats right, that is still part of the non-public site. so it might not be appropriate, but the power that be will move it if they so wish...

I can tell you that we have looked at and changed most of the breed abilities so that they are not 'part' specific.

Thus Lash is being renamed to reflect its ability, but fester was not.

Is fester the only one that bugged you? do you have naother word which would reflect the concept of being covered in blisters and boils that pop when damaged?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:47 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not a major concern, just linguistic consistency. "Lash" was the more outstanding, to me, even if taken as a noun, for the others are all at least uncountables (and some less concrete than that), whereas a lash is a thing, or the thing that is delivered by the first thing, such that one could say "Give him fifty lashes!" where he could not reasonably say "Give him fifty frosts!" or ". . . fifty blood!" I understood (I think) the idea of the representation of pain/torment/oppression, but the more abstract application usually appears with the definite article: Behold the lash!

In any case, a fester, as a noun, is a specific thing, and you can have one or several festers. If used as the verb, it is certainly evocative of the intended interpretation, but then it's the only breed that is a verb. I'm not sure what else would work. "Plague" (as a noun) is much broader, even if it tends to conjure imagery of bubonic infection. "Pestilence" is overdone and is similarly nonspecific. I'm probably the only one who even notices stuff like this, and am obviously not helping by just rambling. "Lash" was weird; "Fester" works. I'm done. Smile
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:37 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Am I understanding correctly that for now Daemon Diceā„¢ will just have Frost Daemon and Rot Daemons, so only two breeds, therefore making every daemon either a Half-Breed or Purebred until expansions come out (or players use Chaos Progenitus dice)?

I think I'm interpreting this correctly, but if I am not, could somebody clarify?
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:05 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Starters will be just those two races. Kickers will come out later with the other breeds. So with the starters only, you can only have a Half-Breed or Pure-Breed. We will be publishing rules for all the kickers when we publish the starters. So if you have Chaos Progenitus or Demon Dice, you can play with those right away. For that matter, if you have dice, you can play using these rules now! We'd love the feedback from people playing games.
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First Place at the first ever Daemon Diceā„¢ sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Diceā„¢, 20,000 Daemon Diceā„¢, and others (too many to count).
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