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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:11 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

In addition to the changes in my post above:

Quote:

Fire daemon (Red plastic/yellow ink):
When fighting against fire, a slight graze can burn and scorch your flesh! Each turn, one stun damage from an undefended attack from a fire daemon's body part becomes a wound instead.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:00 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Question about Stench.
Let's say we're starting a game and I'm going first. Cliff's minuses will be used against me and Cliff is a pure breed stench. Would I have to take a stun during my first turn? Following the turn sequence it would seem I would have to, but I wanted to make sure.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:23 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

An observation about Frost/Fire:

With these changes, we run into a situation where one needs to pick up a die and check what type it is to determine whether a special effect occurs or not (example, I'm facing a pure frost with items & body parts and a stun gets thru - I need to check that stun to see if its from body part or not so I know whether I'll need one or two plusses to recover the stun I take). Very similar to the Dragonslayer/Dragonlord issue Dragon Diceā„¢ had with the Sneak Attack/melee icon - looks the same but does different things depending on what die its on.

It also increases the complexity of the Suffer Stuns step since you now have to declare which dice are stunned by body parts and which dice are stunned by items (for frost/fire).
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:20 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd say no to the question about Stench. It's ability should have during the attack phase. So in your example, Cliff's Stench Daemon has not had an attack phase yet, so no stun.

On the Frost/Fire body parts vs. items... I think that is a good point. We were talking on the item thread that we would not change the non-ID icons' effects, only the ID icon. I think we should do the same here. If you get a Frost stun (body part or item doesn't matter), then it takes 2 pluses to bring back.

I don't have a problem with leaving the starter rules to say "body part dice". The rules that will come out with the items will only apply to the items. Let's make the starter rules only apply to the body parts. After items are out, we can make a downloadable rules set that has all the rules. It will be 3-4 pages long and does not have to have the column breaks (for folding) that I put into the starter rules.
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:21 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I could go either way on Stench, just as long as we word it properly.

On the Item/Bodypart, theses are three sided dice. There is only one way that a die can fall where you can't possibly see it's 'ID' without touching it. So it is similar to the DH problem, but much easier to work around.

I know its simpler to say that those item types have this extra ability, but that automatically makes them 'better' than the other 6 types which don't have an automatic ability. That is my concern with doing it this way.

As for assigning damage to a body part or an item. Yes it is an extra step, but the way that we lay out attacks and lay out defense. I don't see it as a huge extra step.

I guess to me, I don't see an issue with treating frost items differently than frost body parts. We can go ahead and print the starter rules and even the booster rules (once we fix stench). that buys us some time to finalize items at Pax if not before.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:42 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not really a choice with Stench, to make the rules more self-consistent, the stun has to happen at the attack phase. And the only thing a Daemon that does not go first can (possibly) do is put up minuses against the Daemon that goes first. So I'd word Stench:

Stench daemon (Yellow plastic/black ink): The foul odor of a stench daemon is so strong it can stun by itself! This is treated as a stun attack that cannot be defended or modified and is suffered as normal. It is added to the rest of the attacks (if any) that the Stench arrays.
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:03 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

works for me.

and if I consider a multi-player game, then I agree. it must work this way or the stench player would attack everyone every turn.

As for Frost. I know it would be a huge change this late, but would it be simpler to change it's ability to something other than 'hard to recover'? Then we wouldn't have to track damage separately.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:07 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was thinking about this. I wanted to propose a slightly different wording. The extra sentence just felt awkward.

Stench daemon (Yellow plastic/black ink): The foul odor of a stench daemon is so strong it can stun by itself! During Array Attacks, this is treated as a stun attack that cannot be defended or modified and is suffered as normal.

Is that clear enough?
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chuckpint
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:29 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, that's fine on Stench.

I had put up a big reply on Frost, and I guess I forgot to submit it. So let me try again.

Frost: cold, so what can extreme cold do:
  1. Make it harder to get body parts back. Need to heal the stun and the cold.
  2. Do extra damage, so make a stun into a wound.
  3. Cause damage just being near the Frost Daemon, an extra stun.
  4. Slow an opponent down. Suffer an automatic minus.
  5. Slow an opponent down. Just by being near a Frost you lose one Dodge.
  6. Give the Frost Daemon an icy shell. Ignore one stun just because first you must break through the ice.
  7. A Frost Daemon's cold body just doesn't feel the pain. One wound suffered is only a stun.
Obviously, some of these repeat abilities that other Daemons have. I was just trying to be complete.

I need to get this done by tomorrow. That's when I'm going to get the rules printed for the starters.
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:02 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

If we run out of time, then we just go with it as is. But the most I think about it, the more I want to change it so we don't have to track it.

Whatever we add should balance with the Rot ability to keep it a playable starter.

I removed the duplicates of other abilities and will comment on the others.

>Slow an opponent down. Just by being near a Frost you lose one Dodge.

This is only slightly different than getting an auto attack. Not my favorite.

>Give the Frost Daemon an icy shell. Ignore one stun just because first you must break through the ice.

This is nice, but is it ignoring one stun attack or one stun damage (ie leg). what about boosts on that attack? I feel like this is what Shell used to be so we would be getting all those issues back again.

>A Frost Daemon's cold body just doesn't feel the pain. One wound suffered is only a stun.

This is interesting. An endurance ability. Vs Rot, that one just becomes a wound again on their turn.

In a starter, this is defensive and rot is offensive. So there can be an impression that Rot is more powerful.

However, I'm thinking that I like this last one...
Frost daemon (blue plastic/yellow ink): Dwelling so deep and far from any heat source, the buildup of frost provides extra endurance and weakens attacks! Each turn, one wound damage a frost daemon would suffer becomes a stun instead.

I worded it so that this would reduce poison or any wound causing effect that resolves at any point during the turn.

Thoughts?

Note: this resolves the frost item issue, but not Fire Items.
i.e. Does a Fire Sword have the ability of a Fire Arm? I say no. The ability comes from the breed not the item. So a Fire daemon burns the gash left by the frost sword. Thus we don't have to check if any rolled die is a body part or item. This makes more sense to me than the old Frost ability trying to do this.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:15 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Frost daemon (blue plastic/yellow ink): Dwelling so deep and far from any heat source, the buildup of frost provides extra endurance and weakens attacks! Each turn, one wound damage a frost daemon would suffer becomes a stun instead.

Not sure I like the word "endurance" it just doesn't sound right. How do you feel about "protection" instead?

As far as Fire items, fine, it's the fact that there is a stun. The Daemon itself burns the opponent, not item. That's fine. Do we even want to think about Fire vs. Fire? Why would a Fire Daemon burn another Fire Daemon?
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Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:00 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Assuming that only body parts determine whether or not a daemon is pure/half/mongrel, it would seem to me that items that match exactly a pure breed get its ability (i.e. frost/fire or any other); items that don't match don't get the bonus. Simple, easy to remember, easy to execute.

As for the proposed change to frost, that sounds interesting. Its a bit like the old Stone ability.
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:14 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Protection" works for me.

Pi,

I didn't articulate it very well, but I think Chuck got what I was saying. The majority of breed abilities aren't affected by and don't affect the specific dice you choose. This is one reason I redid all of them. My concern is that if we have some items which gain an 'extra' because of the Breed and some which don't. Then it nerfs half or more of the items.

Thus I was trying to remove breed abilities from items. I'm leaning towards a 'bonus'. The question is what that bonus is and what triggers it.

If you make it based on matching YOUR breed, then you will have designed for it and only have to remember what it does for you.

if you make it based on matching THEIR breed (either attacker or defender), then you have to remember when the bonus works and when it doesn't. This is similar to remembering immunity, just more per dice.

However, we tabled that discussion until later. We have time before items will be released.

I know that I tend towards more complicated rules and games. This game isn't intended to be one of those, so I try to balance myself.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:56 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Need some help with this section now that Frost has an effect that should change with size. Here's my attempt:
Daemons of Unusual Size
If you want a quicker battle, try mini-daemons built with only 5 dice. If you want a massive battle, try mega-daemons built with 26 dice. Daemons can be built with any number of dice, but all should have the same number. If your daemon is exactly half one breed and half another, declare which it will be prior to each game. For each multiple (or fraction) of 13 dice, a daemon ability affects one thing per, i.e. 1 to 13 dice affects 1, 14 to 26 dice affects 2, etc.
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Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:28 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good catch!

hmm...

original wrote:
For each multiple (or fraction) of 13 dice, a rot daemon affects an additional body part, i.e. 1 to 13 dice affects 1, 14 to 26 dice affects 2, etc.


I checked the booster to see how it phrased this and its just wrong. it says body part, but most of them aren't body parts.

Can we just say it this way?
new wrote:
For each multiple (or fraction) of 13 dice, a purebred daemon's special power effects is increased by one, i.e. 1 to 13 dice affects 1, 14 to 26 dice affects 2, etc.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:37 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Changed it to this:
Quote:
For each multiple (or fraction) of 13 dice, a purebred daemon's special power effect is increased by one, i.e. 1 to 13 dice affects 1, 14 to 26 dice affects 2, etc.
Note I changed "power effects" to "power effect", since each daemon only has one effect.
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Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:47 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

sounds good.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:00 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

See updated starter rules version 1.00j. http://www.sfr-inc.com/daemondice/DaemonDiceStarterRules.pdf
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Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Diceā„¢, 20,000 Daemon Diceā„¢, and others (too many to count).
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:44 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Number of small changes:
One line of Initiative was missing

Fixed mix-up between terms Boost and Pluses. Attacks and Defenses are Boosted with Pluses. Since some Attacks and Defenses have built-in Boosts, it was important to use the same term. For example under Block this was: "For example, an attack with two pluses could be intercepted by three blocks, or two blocks and a plus, or one block and two pluses." and is now: "For example, an attack with two boosts could be intercepted by three blocks, or two blocks and a plus, or one block and two pluses. "

Changed this awkward double-negative: "If you don’t have at least one body part that isn’t stunned, wounded or grabbed, your daemon loses the battle immediately." to this: "If all your body parts are stunned, wounded or grabbed, your daemon loses the battle immediately."

Changed Arm from this: "Arm: The Arm can be used as either a deflect to
avoid an attack or to make a stun attack." to this: "Arm: The Arm can be used as either a deflect to avoid an attack or to make an attack that does one stun damage."

Changed Shell from this: "Shell: A daemon’s Shell is a deflect with one
built-in plus." to this: "Shell: A daemon’s Shell is a deflect with one built-in boost. This can be boosted with pluses or deflects, including Shells."

New version up in the same place.
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First Place at the first ever Daemon Diceā„¢ sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Diceā„¢, 20,000 Daemon Diceā„¢, and others (too many to count).
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:59 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

some good catches.

when we do the expansion we will need to verify all wordings to use similar syntax.

one question on the Shell.

Is it clear that if you place two shells against one attack, the second shell adds 'two boosts' for a total of three?

BTW - the version that I can see says it is 'k', but the wording for Shell doesn't match what you just posted below. Are you sure that change got saved?

This is what I see for Shell:
Quote:
Shell: A daemon’s Shell is a deflect with one built-in plus. This can be boosted with pluses or deflects, including Shells.

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