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Game-ending single roll

 
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Do you like the idea of Rout?
Yes
83%
 83%  [ 5 ]
I'll post my opinion
16%
 16%  [ 1 ]
No
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Users Voted : 6
Total Votes : 6
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stormywaters
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Joined: 22 May 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:01 pm GMT    Post subject: Game-ending single roll Reply with quote

I played a bunch of games with new players, and there was one huge complaint that was expressed near-universally with the group: No matter how well you build your army, no matter how strategically you play, you can straight lose a game with one botched roll. One hard melee hit compared to one lousy save roll can end a game, and due to the randomness of dice, there is no real way to stop this. However:

What if there were an option where, upon an army losing a save roll against an attack, that army can either suffer casualties as normal or suffer a Rout:

Rout - When an army suffers a Rout, two things happen: the army suffers damage equal to half the unsaved damage from the triggering attack (rounded up), and all remaining units in that army immediately move to reserves.

Before you get up in arms, hear me out. Of course there might need to be a limiter on this - like how much damage is required to take a Rout - but testing can reveal that information.

This does a number of good things:

1. Adds another tactical option to the game
2. Mitigates one-roll game-enders
3. Offsets the first-turn loss

and - to be fair - a number of bad things:

1. Inhibits the strategy of "first-turn win"
2. Makes a victory by annihilation much harder

Now as for the bad, people are already looking for a way to prevent the first-turn wipe with options like a half-turn start or staggered start. And as to point number 2, if you're at the point where victory by annihilation is a real option, you've already got the win anyway.

What say you, dicers?
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chuckpint
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:26 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to start off, I don't like the name. More because there used to be a rule in Dragon Diceâ„¢ called Rout, and I don't want to add confusion by re-using that name.

Biggest danger here: melee and missile are already weaker than magic. Do we want to weaken them more? Right the best way to shutdown your opponent's mages is to kill them all off with melee or missile.

So all that said, could it be an option? Yes. It will need a lot of playtesting. As for the minimum damage to trigger this? I'd say you have to lose more than 1/3 of total health in one blow. Anything less than that is really not that much of a killer.
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Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
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My collection is 21,500 Dragon Diceâ„¢, 20,000 Daemon Diceâ„¢, and others (too many to count).
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:55 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

One other 'bad' thing for your list.

Treating myself as a baseline, I haven't noticed the newer generation of players doing this much, but moving units between terrains can be a big game changer.

There are several situations where moving a unit between terrains quickly is an advantage (which is why it is a racial ability for firewalkers)

This routing could allow me an easier way to move my units from here to there allowing me to either 'steal' a terrain or to block you.
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stormywaters
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:23 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

cliffwiggs wrote:
This routing could allow me an easier way to move my units from here to there allowing me to either 'steal' a terrain or to block you.


That's why the rule includes casualties, moves to reserves, and why I hinted at a minimum damage requirement; you can't say "I took one point of damage, time to move to reserves!

I understand your concern, but really what are you gaining here? You could have moved to reserves on your turn anyway.

chuckpint wrote:
Just to start off, I don't like the name. More because there used to be a rule in Dragon Diceâ„¢™ called Rout, and I don't want to add confusion by re-using that name.


Sure, we could call it "Retreat" or "Fall Back" or something else. I just needed a placeholder.

Quote:
Biggest danger here: melee and missile are already weaker than magic. Do we want to weaken them more? Right the best way to shutdown your opponent's mages is to kill them all off with melee or missile.


This is another can of worms entirely. My disdain for the current magic system is well known. I'd like to see everything brought down a notch. The game as it stands is far too "swingy"; there are too many ways for a game to be decided in one large, splashy event which I feel detracts from the chess-like game that people seem to want.

If you want chess, every victory should be a result of better tactical decisions than your opponent. Your opponent made a bad save roll - with an army designed not to do so - makes the victory feel cheap.

So let's bring magic down, too!

Quote:
So all that said, could it be an option? Yes. It will need a lot of playtesting. As for the minimum damage to trigger this? I'd say you have to lose more than 1/3 of total health in one blow. Anything less than that is really not that much of a killer.


You have no idea how happy I am to hear a support from you! I'd love so see some people playtesting!
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 12:22 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

stormywaters wrote:

I understand your concern, but really what are you gaining here? You could have moved to reserves on your turn anyway.


That is exactly what you are gaining. I should move to reserves this turn, however by going to reserves as part of the action, I can immediately reinforce to another terrain this turn. i.e. my army started the turn at one terrain and ended it at another.

I agree, it isn't a super helpful strat, but I've seen many games lost or atleast not end when they should've because one unit was sent to reserves during the turn and immediately reinforced to another terrain (usually on a 7)
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stormywaters
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 12:32 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

cliffwiggs wrote:
That is exactly what you are gaining. I should move to reserves this turn, however by going to reserves as part of the action, I can immediately reinforce to another terrain this turn. i.e. my army started the turn at one terrain and ended it at another.

I agree, it isn't a super helpful strat, but I've seen many games lost or atleast not end when they should've because one unit was sent to reserves during the turn and immediately reinforced to another terrain (usually on a 7)


Oh I see what you are getting at. You mean attacking, then on the counterattack during your turn you can get sent to reserves.

This is certainly a consideration, but given that you are losing some units anyway. If testing bears this problem out, it could be easily remedied.

I wanted to add one other minor effect, and have keyworded the ability for use in other applications.

Let's get to testing!

Here is the official-for-testing rule:

Quote:
Fall Back: Any time an army would suffer damage equal to at least one-third of that army's total health, after counting saves, that army may instead remove casualties equal to half that amount and send all remaining units in that army to reserves. Those units are Stunned.

Stunned: A Stunned unit may not be rolled until the end of the current turn. (This keyword can be applied to the SAI Stun as well)
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Cataphract
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:43 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another way to mitigate this is by allowing a player to pick between a save roll or a "retreat" roll after the dice are rolled. Consider this:

1. Army A rolls 12 melee results in a melee roll.
2. Army B rolls no saves, but rolls 8 maneuvers.

Army B player could choose to "retreat" instead of save. This would convert his maneuvers into saves and could have any of the following negative effects, depending on what tests best:

1. Moves entire army to reserves.
2. Allows Army A player to change the facing of the terrain die where Army B is by one place.
3. Prevents "retreated" army from taking any action next turn/"stuns" but leaves it at current terrain.

Note that this also prevents the need for qualifiers like "if you suffer X damage or more" by simply making the penalty high enough. The option 2 penalty also gives players a method of capturing terrain without relying exclusively on maneuvers.
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chuckpint
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:01 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the idea. We need to test it. What we want to watch out for, is making a type of dice "must have". Currently heavy melee troops are a type you would put a few into an army, but most likely not your full army. Why? They don't have many maneuvers, so they can't turn the terrain. If suddenly a heavy melee army can consistently turn the terrain up, it becomes more powerful.

Balance is a tricky thing....
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You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Diceâ„¢ sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Diceâ„¢, 20,000 Daemon Diceâ„¢, and others (too many to count).
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