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Web SAI
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syntaxerror111
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 8:57 am GMT    Post subject: Web SAI Reply with quote

I was lamenting the fact that my Driders are so terrible... Web is a straight downgrade from the other "disable" SAIs such as Sleep, Stun, Entangle, and Net. In fact, I would rather they simply be 4 normal melee results instead Mad

I looked at the dice of other races and Web only appears on one other monster, Web Birds (not exactly a powerhouse either). Since this SAI shows up so infrequently, and because it is such a stinker, it should be a simple matter to change it to be more useful. Here are my suggestions:

1. Do away with Web entirely, and make it Net instead. The icons and behavior are very similar, so this should be an easy fix.

2. Make it more interesting, by adding something that interacts with the Fly SAI. Web makes me think of hunting aerial targets, and it would be neat to have it be a soft counter to a very useful SAI.

I am sure others have better ideas than I do, so please share them. I really enjoy Dragon Diceâ„¢, and am simply trying to make the game better. Thanks!

-edit: grammar
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 10:47 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Make it more interesting, by adding something that interacts with the Fly SAI. Web makes me think of hunting aerial targets, and it would be neat to have it be a soft counter to a very useful SAI.



Yes I wanted to do something similar, and also similar to web in MTG


Web should be able to bag a flying unit as a missile defense.
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syntaxerror111
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 3:56 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

DEEPBLUEB2 wrote:

Web should be able to bag a flying unit as a missile defense.


If keeping Web seperate, then one idea would be to kill/bury any units that roll a fly result during the avoidance roll. I think it fits the flavor, and makes this SAI much more useful.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:10 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I don't play lava elves so I may just not completely understand, but does web being "a straight downgrade from other 'disable' SAIs" make it bad?
Or, if it is bad, maybe a good question would be "are driders too good with any other 'disable' SAIs". I honestly don't know just something to take into consideration.
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syntaxerror111
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:00 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Warning! Long post ahead!

I think it would be helpful for me to discuss the Web SAI first in relation to other 'disable' SAIs.

First, let's consider Sleep as our baseline for a disable SAI effect.
Sleep
-triggers during melee
-you choose one unit, which doesn't get a save
-the unit cannot be rolled until the end of your next turn

I am separating its effects so we can compare it to the others.
Next let's look at Stun.
Stun
-triggers during melee
-you choose up to 4 health of units, which get a maneuver avoidance roll
-the affected units cannot be rolled until the end of your next turn
-you get to reroll the unit that generated stun, applying its results as well

Stun's upside is that you have more freedom in choosing targets, and you get a reroll. The downside is that the units get a roll to avoid the effect. Seems like a reasonable compromise to me.

Another similar SAI is Entangle.
Entangle
-triggers during melee
-you choose up to 4 health of units, which don't get a save
-the units cannot be rolled until the beginning of your next turn
-if the entangling unit is killed, they are no longer affected

The trade off here is that you get the flexibility of 4 units with no save, but the effect doesn't last as long and killing your monster undoes the effect. So far each SAI has a similar effect, but none is clearly better.

Coming up is Net
Net
-triggers during melee or missile
-you choose up to 4 health of units, which get a maneuver avoidance roll
-the affected units cannot be rolled until the beginning of your next turn
-Net also provides saves against individual targeting effects

Net is useful in more situations that the previous SAIs, with the downside of a shorter lasting effect and a maneuver avoidance roll.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, so far so good. We have looked at 4 different disabling SAIs, and each brings something different to the table. Now lets look at Web:

Web
-triggers during melee
-you choose up to 4 health of units, which get a melee avoidance roll
-the affected units cannot be rolled until the beginning of your next turn

So why is Web so bad? When you compare its effects to all the other disabling SAIs, it is always just worse. It only triggers in melee, the targets all get a chance to avoid, it has the shorter duration, and it has no other advantages over the other SAIs.

Real quick I want to speak about the maneuver vs melee avoidance roll, as that seems to be the only thing that might be considered an advantage for Web. Most of the time when you are in melee combat, what are the units that you want to disable? Probably their heavy infantry, including units that hit hard and save well. So what's the problem here? Its that the units you are trying to disable are precisely the ones who can most often make the avoidance roll in the first place. Seems like this SAI is a dud!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now that we are done looking at Web in a vacuum, how about some context. Where units does Web appear? To my knowledge, Web only appears on two monsters: Drider and Web Birds. Lets look at the icon distribution on these for a moment:

Drider [Web, Web, missile, maneuver, maneuver, melee, melee, save, save]
Web Birds [Web, Web, Fly, Fly, missile, missile, missile, melee, melee]

As you can see, Web is the only SAI on the Drider, and is accompanied by Fly on Web Birds. Lets take racial bonuses into account, shall we?

Lava Elf Racial Ability
As their only special ability, Lava Elf units count their maneuvers as saves when at a Highland terrain.

So the Drider's two maneuver sides count as saves on a highland. Compare this to the Hellhound, which also has two maneuver sides, doesn't 'waste' a side (missile on a melee oriented monster), and has an arguably better SAI with Flame.

Scalder Racial Abilities
Scorching Touch: Scalders, when rolling for saves during the attack phase of a melee action, generate one point of damage for each non-ID save result back against the attacking army. Only magical saves protect against this damage.
Intangibility: During a save roll against a missile action, each Scalder unit in the defending army provides one automatic save result to this army against any non-SAI missile damage.

The Web Birds reflect damage back when defending from a melee attack with its two Fly SAIs. The Web Birds also get one auto save against ranged attacks. I am not really sure what to say about the rest of the Scalder monsters, as they all seem pretty weak to me. Perhaps someone else that plays Scalders can provide an analysis of them.


So what does it all mean?

It means that Web, in addition to being a weak SAI, only appears on two weak monsters.

I propose that we, the Dragon Diceâ„¢ community, do something about it. Suggestions anyone?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:11 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

syntaxerror111 wrote:

I propose that we, the Dragon Diceâ„¢™ community, do something about it. Suggestions anyone?


Grab some torches and pitchforks and storm the castle? They've been living alone in their Ivory tower for much to long!

Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green

Seriously, this is one of the SAI's that is already on the list to be tweaked during the 3.0 rewrite, specifically because it is a monster only SAI and is on monsters w/o a lot of other SAIs.

So I completely agree with you and welcome any suggestions you might propose for it to be different.

BTW - you might want to consider Hypnotic Glare as a disabling SAI as well. It is only one one monster.
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syntaxerror111
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:29 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

cliffwiggs wrote:

Grab some torches and pitchforks and storm the castle? They've been living alone in their Ivory tower for much to long!


Sorry if I came off a bit strong there... I have found that moderate words seldom go far, especially when it comes to the internet. Smile

I am especially passionate about weak monsters. My feelings are that many monsters are under-powered and are more of a liability than a threat. I may write an in-depth analysis of power level in general, and how monsters inherently start at a disadvantage. That's not to say that all monsters are bad, but that is a discussion for another time.

cliffwiggs wrote:

BTW - you might want to consider Hypnotic Glare as a disabling SAI as well. It is only one one monster.


I have yet to play with or against a Leviathan, so I tend to forget this SAI even exists. Sad
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:05 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Web should be used as defense as well as offense...

or during melee and saves
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syntaxerror111
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:59 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Web #1: Special (melee attack, save)
During a melee attack or a save roll in a melee attack, choose up to four health-worth of units in the enemy army to be webbed unless each targeted unit immediately rolls a melee result. Target units that fail their avoidance roll cannot be rolled until the beginning of your next turn.

The first variant allows this SAI to trigger on save rolls in a melee attack- design space not covered by the other disabling SAIs. It also fits the flavor, as the webs hinder the enemy and make attacking or defending against this unit difficult.


Web #2: Special (melee attack)
During a melee attack, choose up to four health-worth of units in the defending army to be webbed unless each targeted unit immediately rolls a melee result. Target units that fail their avoidance roll cannot be rolled until the beginning of your next turn. Target units that roll a Fly icon are killed with no save possible.

The second variant allows this SAI to potentially kill units with the Fly SAI. The mechanics support the image of a flying unit being helplessly trapped in a web, which I think is spot on.


Web #3: make it Net

Again this is probably the easiest fix, because the icons for Web and Net are similar enough.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:14 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Target units that roll a Fly icon are killed with no save possible.



That's a cool concept!


I imagined an idea where during a save roll...
if a unit rolled Fly,
they were webbed.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:28 am GMT    Post subject: Web SAI Reply with quote

I know that this is only a suggestion or an idea, but please know that it violates the rules (page 39):
Quote:
What is important to note is any
result (normal or special) generated by an SAI, cannot be modified by spells, other SAIs or dragon breath.


I like part of the suggestion, but if we target the "fly" icon, then there will be an exception to the exception (where will it end?).
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 12:30 pm GMT    Post subject: Re: Web SAI Reply with quote

dproman wrote:
I know that this is only a suggestion or an idea, but please know that it violates the rules (page 39):
Quote:
What is important to note is any
result (normal or special) generated by an SAI, cannot be modified by spells, other SAIs or dragon breath.


I like part of the suggestion, but if we target the "fly" icon, then there will be an exception to the exception (where will it end?).
There is already an exception for Fly. Can you find it?

and this is not technically an exception, you aren't making the fly result into something else. you are killing the unit based on it.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 12:52 pm GMT    Post subject: Re: Web SAI Reply with quote

cliffwiggs wrote:
There is already an exception for Fly. Can you find it?


My guess is Galeforce, as it actively changes Fly results to something else by forcing the unit to re-roll until a non-Fly icon is generated.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 1:26 pm GMT    Post subject: Web SAI Reply with quote

So let's just continue to exploit the rules, technically. Mr. Green
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 1:28 pm GMT    Post subject: Re: Web SAI Reply with quote

dproman wrote:
So let's just continue to exploit the rules, technically. Mr. Green
technically, since I write the rules, I am not exploiting them. I'm just explaining them in a different way. Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 1:40 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did I win? Do I get a prize? Very Happy
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 1:54 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

syntaxerror111 wrote:
Did I win? Do I get a prize? Very Happy


Yes! Here take this hint coin Exclamation

Do you know what game you can use that in?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 1:58 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

cliffwiggs wrote:


Yes! Here take this hint coin Exclamation

Do you know what game you can use that in?


The Professor Layton series I presume?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:51 pm GMT    Post subject: Web SAI Reply with quote

syntaxerror111 wrote:

Web #2: Special (melee attack)
During a melee attack, choose up to four health-worth of units in the defending army to be webbed unless each targeted unit immediately rolls a melee result. Target units that fail their avoidance roll cannot be rolled until the beginning of your next turn. Target units that roll a Fly icon are killed with no save possible.


You might consider this word-smithed variant:

Web
During a melee attack, choose up to four health-worth of units in the defending army to be webbed unless each targeted unit immediately rolls a melee result. If a target unit generate maneuver results during this melee avoidance roll, it suffers damage equal to its health, which it must make a save roll against. All surviving target units that failed their melee avoidance roll are webbed and cannot be rolled until the beginning of your next turn.

The premise of adding a hazard to units that roll a maneuver result vs Web is the increased likelihood of a webbed creature entangling or disabling itself further the more it attempts to climb, fly, grapple, or struggle against the web.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 9:04 am GMT    Post subject: Re: Web SAI Reply with quote

dburkley wrote:


Web
During a melee attack, choose up to four health-worth of units in the defending army to be webbed unless each targeted unit immediately rolls a melee result. If a target unit generate maneuver results during this melee avoidance roll, it suffers damage equal to its health, which it must make a save roll against. All surviving target units that failed their melee avoidance roll are webbed and cannot be rolled until the beginning of your next turn.


The flavor I was going for was that flying units are very susceptible to being trapped in a web. While the Fly results would cause the unit to take damage in this version, they also help it to avoid the damage. Also what happens if a unit rolls a trample? Would it succeed the melee avoidance roll, but still take damage and need to save?
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