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Would SFR be bothered if I created a "simplified rulebo
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:47 pm GMT    Post subject: Would SFR be bothered if I created a "simplified rulebo Reply with quote

I know you guys have a quick-game demo ruleset, but I was thinking of re-writing your rulebook with two goals in mind:

1. De-cluttering and re-organizing a few sections, especially by trying to change it to introduce concepts in order of importance. This goal would be to present the full current rules.

2. Creating a section specifically for a simplified rules set for beginners. Key changes would be a simplified magic list (right now I'm thinking one generic table for all colors and perhaps 3 spells each unique to each color) and simplified and/or removed racial abilities. The basic goal is to reduce the amount of information a new player would be required to memorize or reference in order to access the game and, after they have access, can then move on to the more complex rules that all of you old veterans play with. I think this is one of the biggest flaws in the original design of Dragon Diceā„¢.

I also have some ideas vis a vis using Dragon Diceā„¢ in place of complex rules systems for mass warfare that are in place in things like Tabletop D&D, but that would begin to look like an entirely different game and I want to try to start slow (as I'm somewhat of a novice myself).
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:56 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

We can't really STOP you, so no. I have no problem. As long as you don't claim the game as your own. i.e. give proper credit where credit is due.

however, you should know that we are in the midst of doing something VERY similar ourselves.

I'm interested in seeing a high level draft of how you would reorganize things or present the game to a new player differently.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:00 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

How fast can you have this done? Shocked

Seriously, this is exactly what we need right now. Cliff and I are pretty much the only two that spend much time on the game for SFR. And given we get paid just as much as you do, Shocked we would love the help.

I'm moving this to a private forum, and giving you access.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:05 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was going to get to that (private forum etc), but you moved much faster than I.

So, the current plan is to reduce the rules to JUST what comes in firewalkers and treefolk (which means no black magic, reduced SAI, reduced spells, etc)

I was also planning to NOT explain exceptions to exceptions or the weird corner cases of the rules. Just an 80% introduction to the core rules needed to play most games.

And remove most of the examples and all of the flavor text. and the huge blocks of text before the sai and spells. i.e. use natural langauge and not this formulaic one we have.

So... how would you reorganize this?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:50 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

cliffwiggs wrote:
And remove most of the examples and all of the flavor text. and the huge blocks of text before the sai and spells. i.e. use natural langauge and not this formulaic one we have.
That was going to be step one for me. Flavor text is really fun, but it doesn't belong interspersed with rules text. I actually really really like the way flavor text vs rules was presented in the Dark Sun base campaign supplements for TSR. It came with three main items:

1. A rules compendium. This was rules rules and only rules. It told you absolutely nothing about the world of Athas in which the game took place except what you needed to understand the rules.

2. The "wanderer's journal." This was basically just a detailed journal about the setting that gave the DM a bunch of adventure hooks and provided rules for creatures and the like. This is probably unnecessary for Dragon Diceā„¢.

3. A short story. I think this is something you guys might want to consider creating as a supplement. Part of what made Magic so successful in its early days is that there were hints of a story on the cards. I fell in love with the struggles of Icatia and the other people in the Fallen Empires set and that hooked me on Magic for years. You can't put a story on the dice of course, but you COULD include a cheap paper packet in starters that tells a little story about the game world (this is what the story was in the Dark Sun box; it was printed on tinted paper and just stapled together). This is also where you could move a lot of the elements of your flavor text.


As for the ordering of the rules, I've watched a few YouTube videos and the like of people trying to explain the rules, but because Dragon Diceā„¢ players love the dice themselves so much, I think there's actually too early a focus on what the icons on the dice mean and what the difference is between rarities and monsters. This is problematic for two reasons IMO:

1. Many of the dice faces are self-explanatory. Even when I was a total newbie, I could guess what icons were melee, ranged, etc. I could even guess that "Rend" icons counted for both melee and move icons. Think about how many people who play Magic seriously today played the game horribly incorrectly when they first started because the cards made a good bit of sense on their own, but didn't explain everything perfectly. A newbie starting guide should focus first on the minimum number of NON-obvious things. It's better to have new players playing totally wrong than it is to have them get confused and give up, after all.

2. The dice, in my opinion, are almost secondary to the other rules. Think about Dungeons and Dragons for a minute. Can you play it without dice? Kind of, but not really, since you won't be able to emulate the chance and the excitement of the unknown that separates D&D from any other storytelling method. But, fundamentally, D&D isn't a "dice game," it's an adventure game; if you want to tell the story of an adventure, D&D's mechanics are one method of telling that story.

Now what about Dragon Diceā„¢? You lose the "kind of" bit, but the rest of the answer is the same. Fundamentally, Dragon Diceā„¢ is a WAR game that's played WITH dice. The dice are obviously much more important in Dragon Diceā„¢ than they are in D&D or even many other war games, but if you wanted to tell the story of a great battle, Dragon Diceā„¢ are one method of telling that story.


So as a REALLY rough initial outline of how I might order the rulebook:
1. What is Dragon Diceā„¢? (A dice war and strategy game.)
2. What's the objective? (To capture land or defeat your opponent's army.)
3. What do I need to start playing?
a. Terrain dice (explain some basics; leave out 8th Face rules for now)
b. Army dice (basics again; no SAI explanations or rarity explanation)
c. Mention the Dragon Diceā„¢. Something along the lines of "When you really start playing you'll need powerful Dragon Diceā„¢, but for your first game we'll focus on just the basics."
4. Quickstart Rules
a. Explain game setup. Have player use JUST a starter. Don't explain point values and the like yet. The player should be able to have a simple battlefield set up after this step, though he'll still be utterly bewildered as to what he's going to do with it. Also point out to the player that he'll have an extra 8-sided die and to just not worry about it right now. Again, don't explain specifics, not even what the colors on the terrain dice mean.
b. Have the player set the frontier die to 6, and have him put his entire army there except for his Monster (have that at home) and his Rare (have that as a horde). Teach him how to roll for melee combat and counterattack using just the frontier armies. Mention having to have at least one unit at each terrain at gamestart.
c. Do the same thing for ranged (re-setting frontier die to make it clear to player when he can use ranged). Mention that in a real game his ranged attack could be used against the other armies on the table.
d. Have an entire section dedicated to Magic since it's the least intuitive and arguably most complex thing you need to know to play your first game. I'd create a "basic spells" list for the player to use at this point (one that gives no regard to spell color, die color, magic doubling, etc. Just "for two wands you can do this, for four you can do this, etc."). Something making clear the power level of a number of magic results. Mention dragons but don't introduce them yet.
e. Introduce the rest of the simple rules needed for a player to pit his two armies against one another; terrain rolling at gamestart, maneuver, counter-maneuver, reserves, etc. Perhaps include a quick reference card for the turn order. Again, leave out 8th-face and full spell lists and dragons and the like for now. (Another thing that might be neat is packaging index cards with spell reference sheets for the colors of the races in the starter so the player can kind of see where things are going and use it until they have things memorized.)

The goal here is to get the player to the point of playing a "simplified" version of the game by himself or a friend within 20 minutes of opening the box, while giving him a taste of the more complex rules he'll be using once he's ready.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:33 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

That sounds like an excellent plan and we would love to use something like this in our new starters. (giving credit where credit is due to you)

So, putting on my Project Manager hat.

What can I give to you to help this happen and what kind of duration are you thinking it will take to complete?

I don't want to scare you, but when people volunteer to do something I tend to jump on it...
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:20 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I could whip up a rough draft pretty fast really; probably by next Friday. The one caveat I want to make clear is that my understanding of the rules right now is entirely based on me reading your current materials; I haven't actually played any games since the TSR days (hence me calling myself a "novice" in the first post). I don't think this is necessarily a problem as far as writing is concerned (it might even be a benefit to writing intro materials), but it does mean I'll definitely need someone to look over what I did and make sure I didn't misinterpret anything that I read in the current rules, or skip over something too important to skip. I presume this won't be a problem really, as I'm sure there are plenty of people around here who'd be happy to help with that, but I thought it bore mentioning.

The one thing I can think of off the top of my head that would be useful to me is for someone to take product images of the dice in a "set up" manner using stuff from just a starter. I think real pictures might be better than just dice images. I'll come up with a list of pictures in a second post.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:05 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree. What you are planning (pictures) is exactly what I wanted to do back in September, but... well life happened and I have way more important things to do.

A rep from Washington offered to take some photos on a generic green flocking (like war games use with the little fake trees). So get us a list and he can do it. He's an art major and have nice equipment.

and we will have lots of people proof read it. no worries.

I think that some of our rules need to change anyway and your viewpoint can help tell us what is intuitive.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:05 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to keep things updated, now that my busy weekend is over, I'm beginning some drafting on this.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:02 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm working on the quickstart section right now. If anyone has any input, ways to simplify things, or if I got anything wrong, please let me know. I also have a few of the images I need listed in the body of the text, but I'll make an easier full list separately later.

What do I need to start playing?

With a single starter pack, you can start right away! A starter pack includes all the dice you need to play your first game of Dragon Diceā„¢ against a single opponent. As you expand your collection, you can play bigger and bigger games with more and more players; there's no upper limit besides the size of your collection.

But what do all of these dice mean?

There are three kinds of dice included in your starter pack. These dice represent all of the most basic elements of the game. In your starter pack, you have:
(Images for each kind of die.)
-Four 8-Sided Terrain Dice
Terrain Dice represent the land upon which your armies fight. They are numbered from 1 to 8; these numbers represent the distance between the armies on the field. The lowest numbers represent ranges so long that only magic can reach across the field; the highest numbers represent close combat, with the 8th side of the die representing the stronghold of that terrain.
-Two 10-Sided and Eighteen 6-Sided Unit Dice
Unit Dice represent the force you have brought to battle. Each vary in size and shape depending on their strength. The smallest dice represent fresh, inexperienced recruits. You can think of these as "level 1" units. The medium-sized dice represent professional, battle- hardened soldiers. You can think of these as "level 2" units. The biggest 6-sided dice represent the most elite soldiers in your army, and can be thought of as "level 3" units. The 10-sided dice represent monsters allied to your army's cause, and can be thought of as "level 4" units. More detail is available about these in the comprehensive rules.
-Two 12-Sided Dragon Diceā„¢
We won't use these in the quick start rules, but once you're ready for the comprehensive rules, you'll be able to use your mages to summon these powerful Dragon Diceā„¢ to fight for your cause on the battlefield.

Enough explanations! Let's set up a game.

You'll be using all of your dice except for the dragons and one of the terrain dice (which one doesn't matter right now), so set these aside. Place the three remaining terrain dice in front of you, arranged horizontally, with a bit of distance between each. Separate all of your unit dice apart by color; pick one color to be your army, and one to be the army of an imaginary opponent sitting across the table from you. A game of Dragon Diceā„¢ always starts with at least one die from each player at each terrain. Place your 10-sided monster die and your opponent's biggest 6-sided unit die near the terrain die to your left. Place your biggest 6-sided unit die and your opponent's 10-sided monster die near the terrain die to your right. Place all the other 6-sided unit dice near the terrain die in the center. Later, you can check the comprehensive rules for more details about game setup, but we'll use this simple setup to explain the basic mechanics of the game.

Let's talk about combat. Set the center terrain die to "6." The sword icon on this side of the die represents two armies which have closed to a dangerous melee. In melee, it's rare for an attacking army to escape harm. Take your army and roll it, counting up all the melee icons (represented by swords, axes, clubs, and the like). Some dice will have landed with their "face" showing. When a die's face shows, it counts for whatever kind of icon you're rolling for right now. "Level 1" die face icons count for one, "level 2" for two, and so on. Add these to the total of your melee icons for the final result.
(Image of melee and face icons for both races in starter.)

Your opponent doesn't just sit there and take it of course. Roll the opposing army and add up all the "save" icons (represented by shields). Once again, the face icons contribute to this roll as well, so add them up the same way you did for melee to get your final save total.
(Image of save icons for races in starter.)

If the total for the melee roll is greater than the total for the save roll, your army has inflicted casualties on the enemy. When an army takes casualties, the player who controls that army gets to decide which units die. Each die can take an amount of damage equal to its "level," and a player isn't allowed to assign less damage to a die than would kill it (so if you deal 2 damage, he can't assign one damage each to two level 2 units; he has to assign all the damage to one unit and lose one level 2 unit as a casualty). When a unit dies, it gets placed in its controller's morgue; set these units aside.

In melee, your opponent gets to counter-attack. Roll your opponent's army and add up melee and face results just as you did for your army, and roll your army to add up face and save results. Select which units will be casualties and set them aside in a separate morgue pile from your opponent's morgue.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:18 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

One bit of style to make things a little less confusing. When referring to dragons, use lower case. So the line should be: "Two 12-sided dragons."

Also each race has:
2 monsters
2 rares
4 uncommons
8 commons

So there are a total of 14 six-sided dice.
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My collection is 21,500 Dragon Diceā„¢, 20,000 Daemon Diceā„¢, and others (too many to count).
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 11:09 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuckpint wrote:
One bit of style to make things a little less confusing. When referring to dragons, use lower case. So the line should be: "Two 12-sided dragons."

Also each race has:
2 monsters
2 rares
4 uncommons
8 commons

So there are a total of 14 six-sided dice.
I guess I can't count. Mr. Green

And I assume by "race" you meant "starter" there.

The "Product Simulator" on your front page shows starters coming with 6 uncommons and 10 commons. It's inaccurate then? I see two kickers coming with the numbers you mentioned.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 11:51 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another thing I could use some input on. Rough draft on the "beginner spell list." I'll make it clear that this spell list should only be used by beginners and is not part of the official rules; I also worded it differently than the "official" syntax to make it easier for a novice to understand. I'm mostly concerned about power levels and how representative you all feel they are of what spells typically do. The level 6 spell is meant to simultaneously teach that sometimes a unit needs to roll something other than a save to survive.


Beginner Spell List:
2 Beginner's Luck: On your next turn, add 1 to the results of any roll made by target army.
3 Second Wind: Take a level 1 unit from your morgue and add it to the army casting this spell.
4 Magic Missile: Deal 1 damage to any unit of your choice.
5 Wall of Iron: Choose a terrain. Until the end of your next turn, all melee results at that terrain are halved, rounded down.
6 Fireball: Choose two enemy units. Your opponent must roll those units. If either of those units fails to roll a save, a maneuver, or a face, that unit is killed and placed in the morgue.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 7:02 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gearing up for our new starters. Ignore that on the front page, that is for the old starters. And I mean each race. The new starters will have two races: Treefolk and Firewalkers. Each start will have two kicker bags of dice for each race.

We have talked about beginner rules before. One thing we want to do is make starting play less confusing. We also want to make the transition from starting play to full advanced play less confusing. I'd be worried that if you had "beginner's" spells that are completely different and not allowed in full advanced play, you would seriously confuse people.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:47 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe I'll just take a smaller number of spells from the normal spell lists and present them.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:21 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see Chuck has mentioned a lot of things so i won't repeat him. (see what I did there)

On the images, don't wait too long. They will take some time to get built, but I understand that it might be faster to take them all at once.

On the product Simulator, I could easily put the new starter up there... I just have so much todo that is more important.

On the spells, I agree. It would be better to take from the existing list. Suggestions are:

Palsy
StoneSkin
Hailstorm
Breath of Life
Finger of Death
Dancing Lights
Flash Flood
Summon Dragon

Those hit a majority of the game mechanics, but if any spell gets into too large of an explanation, then cut it.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 8:46 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

btw - fixed the product simulator to have the new style starter as well.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:01 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

cliffwiggs wrote:
btw - fixed the product simulator to have the new style starter as well.
Thanks! That will help with reference.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:33 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't originally size the screen to hold that many dice, but it's fine.

Is there anything I can do to help you get your draft rulebook done sooner?

no pressure, but due to errors on my part, the need for this rulebook is about... 6 months behind. Embarassed
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:28 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

cliffwiggs wrote:
I didn't originally size the screen to hold that many dice, but it's fine.

Is there anything I can do to help you get your draft rulebook done sooner?

no pressure, but due to errors on my part, the need for this rulebook is about... 6 months behind. Embarassed
Hmmm...nothing that wouldn't likely require more time than you have available right now. Things like cleaning up the appendix area and re-organizing it by race rather than by concept, which isn't rewriting per se.
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