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Would SFR be bothered if I created a "simplified rulebo
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Cataphract
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:46 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, I might need someone more experienced with layout to help me with the final drafting. At any rate, I do not have a way to create .pdfs, so someone will have to convert it to .pdf when I'm finished.
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chuckpint
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:03 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not a problem. I can convert most Windows documents to PDF.
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:51 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cataphract wrote:
Things like cleaning up the appendix area and re-organizing it by race rather than by concept, which isn't rewriting per se.


will the quickstarter/starter rules require an appendix?

one of our long term goals is to get rid of the glossary section of the rulebook.
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Cataphract
dragonmount



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:09 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

cliffwiggs wrote:
Cataphract wrote:
Things like cleaning up the appendix area and re-organizing it by race rather than by concept, which isn't rewriting per se.


will the quickstarter/starter rules require an appendix?

one of our long term goals is to get rid of the glossary section of the rulebook.
I wanted to include a reference section with the following items:
1. The spells the Treefolk and Firewalkers have access to.
2. The SAI that appear on Treefolk and Firewalkers units.
3. The effects of 8th face icons that come in the starter.

I think this is all that's absolutely necessary, but if you can think of anything else a new player would like to have a quick reference sheet for, those things should be present as well.
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:13 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

ah, gotcha.

suggestions: dragon icons and meanings.

high level turn sequence
high level action resolution

something like the text on the left and right columns of this file.

http://www.sfr-inc.com/playmats/DemoVersionCE.pdf

or that might be too low level...
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Cataphract
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:34 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

cliffwiggs wrote:
ah, gotcha.

suggestions: dragon icons and meanings.

high level turn sequence
high level action resolution

something like the text on the left and right columns of this file.

http://www.sfr-inc.com/playmats/DemoVersionCE.pdf

or that might be too low level...
I was planning on writing up a "turn checklist" that walks players through a turn step by step. Things like:
1. Did you use any captured terrain abilities this turn?
2. Did you resolve any spell effects that end this turn?

etc.
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Cataphract
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 9:33 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

A combination of personal issues and the project being a bit bigger than I thought it would be caused me to fail to meet my self-imposed deadline of yesterday. I think I can guarantee completion by next Friday, and will likely have it done, barring any unforseen trip-ups, sometime around Wednesday.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:43 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even if it's just a rough draft, feel free to post what you have.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 3:56 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is what I've got so far. I wanted to go back through and clarify things and possibly re-order some stuff. It also needs more at the end about regular gameplay, and I want to make a turn checklist and reference sheet for the two races in the starter. Here's what's done:

What do I need to start playing?

With a single starter pack, you can start right away! A starter pack includes all the dice you need to play your first game of Dragon Diceā„¢ against a single opponent. As you expand your collection, you can play bigger and bigger games with more and more players; there's no upper limit besides the size of your collection.

But what do all of these dice mean?

There are three kinds of dice included in your starter pack. These dice represent all of the most basic elements of the game. In your starter pack, you have:
(Images for each kind of die.)
-Four 8-Sided Terrain Dice
Terrain Dice represent the land upon which your armies fight. They are numbered from 1 to 8; these numbers represent the distance between the armies on the field. The lowest numbers represent ranges so long that only magic can reach across the field; the highest numbers represent close combat, with the 8th side of the die representing the stronghold of that terrain.
-Four 10-Sided and Twenty Eight 6-Sided Unit Dice
Unit Dice represent the force you have brought to battle. Each vary in size and shape depending on their strength. The smallest dice represent fresh, inexperienced recruits. You can think of these as "level 1" units. The medium-sized dice represent professional, battle- hardened soldiers. You can think of these as "level 2" units. The biggest 6-sided dice represent the most elite soldiers in your army, and can be thought of as "level 3" units. The 10-sided dice represent monsters allied to your army's cause, and can be thought of as "level 4" units. More detail is available about these in the comprehensive rules.
-Four 12-Sided Dragons
We won't use these in the quick start rules, but once you're ready for the comprehensive rules, you'll be able to use your mages to summon these powerful dragons to fight for your cause on the battlefield.

Enough explanations! Let's set up a game.

You'll be using all of your dice except for the dragons and one of the terrain dice (which one doesn't matter right now), so set these aside. Place the three remaining terrain dice in front of you, arranged horizontally, with a bit of distance between each. Separate all of your unit dice apart by color; pick one color to be your army, and one to be the army of an imaginary opponent sitting across the table from you. A game of Dragon Diceā„¢ always starts with at least one die from each player at each terrain. Place your 10-sided monster die and your opponent's biggest 6-sided unit die near the terrain die to your left. Place your biggest 6-sided unit die and your opponent's 10-sided monster die near the terrain die to your right. Place all the other 6-sided unit dice near the terrain die in the center. Later, you can check the comprehensive rules for more details about game setup, but we'll use this simple setup to explain the basic mechanics of the game.

(Image of initial setup.)

Each of the six groups of unit dice at these terrain dice is referred to as an "army." Anytime the rules mention an "army," they are referring only to one of these six groups of dice.

Let's talk about combat. Set the center terrain die to "6." The sword icon on this side of the die represents two armies which have closed to a dangerous melee. In melee, it's rare for an attacking army to escape harm. Take your army at the center terrain die and roll it, counting up all the melee icons (represented by swords, axes, clubs, and the like). Some dice will have landed with their "face" showing. When a die's face shows, it counts for whatever kind of icon you're rolling for right now. "Level 1" die face icons count for one, "level 2" for two, and so on. Add these to the total of your melee icons for the final result.
(Image of melee and face icons for both races in starter.)

Your opponent doesn't just sit there and take it of course. Roll the opposing army and add up all the "save" icons (represented by shields). Once again, the face icons contribute to this roll as well, so add them up the same way you did for melee to get your final save total.
(Image of save icons for races in starter.)

If the total for the melee roll is greater than the total for the save roll, your army has inflicted casualties on the enemy. When an army takes casualties, the player who controls that army gets to decide which units die. Each unit can take an amount of damage equal to its "level," and a player isn't allowed to assign less (or more) damage to a unit than would kill it (so if you deal 2 damage, he can't assign one damage each to two level 2 units; he has to assign all the damage to one unit and lose one level 2 unit as a casualty). When a unit dies, it gets placed in its controller's morgue; set these units aside.

In melee, your opponent gets to counter-attack. Roll your opponent's army and add up melee and face results just as you did for your army, and roll your army to add up face and save results. Select which units will be casualties and set them aside in a separate morgue pile from your opponent's morgue.

Now let's talk about ranged combat. Turn the middle 8-sided terrain die so that one of the faces with an arrow on it is showing. This icon represents the armies being too distant to fight in melee, but not so far away that their archers cannot attack. Unlike melee combat, ranged combat is safe for the attacking army. Let's take all the units back out of the morgues and put them back into their armies just to see what a full ranged attack is like.

Roll your army at the center terrain die again. This time, we're looking for ranged damage icons (typically represented by bows, slings, javelins, or guns). Remember to combine the result with any faces showing on your dice! Faces always count as whatever result you're rolling for, and they always count for one per "level" of the unit being rolled.

(Image of ranged icons for races in starter.)

Just like last time, roll your "opponent's" army, looking for saves (the same icons as before). If the ranged damage total is higher than the number of saves rolled, you've inflicted casualties. Ranged combat casualties work exactly the same way as melee combat casualties.

(Fill in info about attacking other terrains.)

Once you have melee and ranged combat down, you're ready to move on to the most complex form of combat in Dragon Diceā„¢: Magic.

Put all of the units in the morgues back in their respective armies and turn the 8-sided terrain die to its "1" face. The starburst on this face means that the armies are so far away from one another that only magic attacks can take place. Melee and ranged both worked in similar ways; you roll for their respective icons and the defending player rolls for saves. Magic works much differently; you still roll for magic icons (and face icons, of course), but the effects these icons have vary greatly depending on what you choose to do with them. Your opponent may roll for saves, but he may roll for completely different icons.

Another difference with magic is that, while any color of die can engage in melee or ranged combat, spells are limited to certain colors. A blue and red Firewalker die can only cast blue spells, red spells, or Firewalker spells. There are a lot of spells to choose from, which can be confusing for a new player, but spells are one of the ways to add more interesting strategic decisions to the game, and are too important to ignore. Some example spells are presented below. The full list of spells available to the races in this starter is available at the end of the quick start section at the beginning of the reference section.

Just like melee and missile combat, an army rolls for magic and face icons and adds them up. Unlike melee and missile combat, however, you must choose which "color" of magic each point is going to count as from among the colors of the dice in your army (in this starter, the Firewalker player can choose between red and blue, and the Treefolk player can choose between green and gold). Additionally, "face" icons count for double their normal value if the color of magic you choose matches one of the colors of the terrain die. The last difference between magic and normal combat is that you spend your total on spells of your choosing, all of which cost different amounts of magic points and have very different effects from one another.

(Image of magic icons from races in starter.)

Example Spells:
2 Hailstorm: Hailstorm costs 2 magic points to cast, and is a blue (Air) spell. Blue spells focus on quickness and aggression. Hailstorm deals 1 point of damage to an enemy army, just as if you had inflicted one missile damage against it. You can cast this spell as many times as you'd like, increasing the damage by 1 for every 2 magic points you spend on it. The enemy army gets to roll for saves, just as if it had been attacked with missiles.
3 Reanimate Dead: Reanimate Dead costs 3 magic points to cast, and is a black (Death) spell. Black spells focus on weakening opponents and toying with the forces of life and death. Reanimate Dead allows you to return one level 1 die from your morgue back into play as part of the army that cast Reanimate Dead. If you spend 6 magic points on Reanimate Dead, you can bring either two level 1 dice or one level 2 die back. If you spend 9, you can bring three levels worth back, and so on.
4 Path: Path costs 4 magic points to cast, and is a gold (Earth) spell. Gold spells focus on defense, strength, and altering the terrain. Path allows you to move any one of your units from one terrain to another.
5 Flash Flood: Flash Flood costs 5 magic points to cast, and is a green (Water) spell. Green spells focus on protection, healing, and life. Flash Flood forces your opponent to roll for maneuvers. If he does not roll at least 8 maneuvers, you may turn the terrain die where that enemy army is down by one place. If you cast this multiple times, you must choose a different terrain dice each time; you can't choose the same one twice.
6 Dancing Lights: Dancing Lights costs 6 magic points to cast, and is a red (Fire) spell. Red spells focus on distraction and power. Dancing Lights forces your opponent to halve all of the missile and magic results from any roll he makes with one army of your choice until the end of your next turn.


At this point you may be wondering how we decide which face of the terrain dice should be showing at any given time. At the beginning of the game, this is very simple: you just roll the die! If an 8 comes up, you roll it again, and if a 7 comes up, you turn the die town to 6 and start it there (you'll understand why in a moment). It's often the case, however, that your army is best at a certain range, and that you don't like the side that's come up with the roll. In this case, before you attack each turn, you may attempt to make a maneuver roll.

(Image for maneuver icons of each race in starter.)

A maneuver roll works very similarly to all the other rolls we've discussed: you roll the army at the terrain you're trying to change, and count up all the maneuver icons and face icons. This time, however, your opponent isn't rolling for saves; he rolls for maneuvers and faces as well. If you roll equal to or higher than your opponent, you may change the terrain die by one place (5 to either 4 or 6, 3 to either 2 or 4, 1 to 2, and so on). You may not go from 1 to 8 or 8 to 1. If you manage to successfully turn the die to its 8th face, you have captured that terrain. If you capture two of the three terrains in play, you've won the game. This is why the terrain dice can't start at 7 or 8. A captured terrain also gives the capturing player extra bonuses depending on what type of stronghold is present at that terrain (represented by the icon on the 8th face). Information about what each one does is presented in the reference section at the end of this quick start guide.

(Image for each "stronghold.")

Remember, you always attack or cast spells AFTER this roll and, if you don't want to change the die, you don't have to make a maneuver roll at all. In fact, if you want to maneuver, your opponent doesn't even have to try to stop you; he can just let you change the die by one face without even rolling.


Now that you know all of the things you can do at a terrain die, it's time to talk about those other two terrain dice where you put your level 3 units and level 4 monsters. The terrain die in the middle where we've been practicing is called the "frontier" terrain die, and your army there is called your "campaign army." The terrain die to the left of you is called your "home" terrain die, and your army there is called your "home army;" your opponent's army there is called his "horde" army. The terrain die to your right (and your opponent's left) is HIS "home" die. His army there is his "home" army; your army there is your "horde" army. The exact terms aren't especially important; the important things to remember are that each player gets to choose his or her own "home" terrain before play, and that the player who goes second gets to choose the "frontier" terrain. Players generally choose colors that match their dice, since this gives them bonuses when casting spells.

In a real game, you don't have to arrange your dice the way we did at the beginning, with your level 3 and 4 dice at the home terrains of each player; you can arrange your dice in any way you want. The reason we set the level 3 and 4 dice aside is because those units have special abilities. There are many different icons for many different special abilities; so many that we can't cover them all here. Every single special ability icon and its effects, however, can be seen in the reference section after the spell lists.
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 10:22 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting approach. I've seen a lot of the more complicated Mayfair boardgames have a guided setup for the first game.

we can refer many things to the full rules, but I think having something that explains dragons (maybe at the VERY end) should be there. It is Dragon Diceā„¢ after all.

Mr. Green
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Cataphract
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:46 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

cliffwiggs wrote:
Interesting approach. I've seen a lot of the more complicated Mayfair boardgames have a guided setup for the first game.

we can refer many things to the full rules, but I think having something that explains dragons (maybe at the VERY end) should be there. It is Dragon Diceā„¢™ after all.

Mr. Green
Yeah, I was considering tacking it on at the very end.

Can ivory dragons come in the starter? I was hoping not so we don't have to say "dragons fight each other except for these ones who don't."
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 6:57 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, there will be ivory dragons in the starters. As well as black (which neither race can use). We use the "simple" dragon breath rule in demos that a breath kills 5 health, done, nothing else. I would not be against that in this. At the same time, you can just leave out the part about dragons fighting each other. In other words, just treat the dragons as if they were all ivory no matter what their color is. If you want to put in sometime about in the full rules the color matters, that's fine.
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My collection is 21,500 Dragon Diceā„¢, 20,000 Daemon Diceā„¢, and others (too many to count).
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Cataphract
dragonmount



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 7:04 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuckpint wrote:
Yes, there will be ivory dragons in the starters. As well as black (which neither race can use). We use the "simple" dragon breath rule in demos that a breath kills 5 health, done, nothing else. I would not be against that in this. At the same time, you can just leave out the part about dragons fighting each other. In other words, just treat the dragons as if they were all ivory no matter what their color is. If you want to put in sometime about in the full rules the color matters, that's fine.
Is there a mechanical reason ivory dragons have to not fight other dragons, or is it just flavor text?
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 7:16 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a function of what ivory means. Ivory is the lack of color.

a dragon of a color fights a dragon of a different color.

in this case ivory is no color, so it doesn't trigger.

but that is too complicated for these rules. So just treat dragons as colorless.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 7:22 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

cliffwiggs wrote:
It's a function of what ivory means. Ivory is the lack of color.

a dragon of a color fights a dragon of a different color.

in this case ivory is no color, so it doesn't trigger.

but that is too complicated for these rules. So just treat dragons as colorless.
I was wondering: would it be easier/more fun to treat them as colorless or to treat them all as different colors and have them all fight each other?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 9:00 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been bedridden for a lot of this week and not had a chance to do as much as I would have liked. Planning a marathon session late tonight in hopes of finishing this thing up.
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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2015 10:40 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just wanted to check-in and see if you were still working on this or if it had fallen to the side.
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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2015 12:34 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can pick it up again. I had only stopped because my perception was that the reception was lukewarm.
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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2015 12:46 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't say luke warm as much as overly cautious (our comments) and just a bit busy (our silence).

The approach you were taking would be great for the website. Right now, I need something to put in as a rulebook for a starter. (targeting 3 weeks ago, gotta work on that time machine)

Let me create a draft of my own and share what I have and it would be great to get your review on it.

then we can go back to your approach and make something to fit on a newly designed website (in progress and targeting 3 weeks for completion)
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