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New Rules Suggestion: Frontier Tower 8th face addition

 
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syntaxerror111
dragonmount



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:39 am GMT    Post subject: New Rules Suggestion: Frontier Tower 8th face addition Reply with quote

I hear that a new revision of the game is in the works. Has anyone involved considered giving the tower some extra benefit when captured at the frontier location? I know a current tactic is to to pick a tower if you don't plan on capturing the frontier yourself. However it just seems strange to have this one exception.

I am not an expert in this game at all, but it seems to me that most armies I see are comprised of a melee/cav component and a magic component. Having magic units to bring back dead units is practically necessary, and mages have a wide variety of attack and supporting spells as well. And to capture an 8th face an army must march through at least 2 melee steps, making melee a very important component of the game. This puts missile units in a weird place where they cant capture like melee/cav and cant support as well as magic.

If your army is comprised of missile + melee, you have little way of bringing dead units back to life (unless you own trolls or a gold medallion). If you army is comprised of missile + magic your opponent can wait in reserves for you to move terrain close to an 8.

It seems to me like a majority of races would rather run a melee/cav + magic mix. Giving a frontier tower some extra benefit for missile units would be a great way to add some more strategic options. Here are a few ideas of things it could do:

1. Allow armies in a captured frontier tower to fire on armies in the reserve.
2. Allow armies in a captured frontier tower to counter-attack with missile and melee results
3. Allow armies in a captured frontier tower to fire back against enemy missile attacks
4. Allow armies in a captured frontier tower to target one or more units in the defending army (like bullseye)
5. Grant missile actions from a captured frontier tower extra or doubled missile results

These are not playtested and represent different levels of power. Does anyone else agree that they should be changed, and if so have ideas for what could be added?
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:45 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, I have to completely agree with you.
Second, Are you sure you aren't reading my mind?
Third, let me tip our hand a little early by posting this small piece of the 3.0 rules update:
Quote:
Tower:
The controlling army may fire missiles at any opponent’s army. If firing into reserves only count non-ID and non-SAI missile results ignoring any Racial Abilities.

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syntaxerror111
dragonmount



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:24 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cliff,

Does that mean that any captured tower can fire into reserves, or just one at the frontier?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:25 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

"any means any"

So into reserves.
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syntaxerror111
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:32 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shocked
Smile
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Mr. Green
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:05 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is the logic behind not allowing SAI or ID missile results count in the damage to reserve armies? For some reason, I agree with not applying racial modifiers, but not sure why you wouldn't allow IDs to count. They should count for anything. And it would be strange that a Bullseye or Stone wouldn't give you anything during a missile attack.

Is it a game balance issue? The thought Tower would be too powerful? If so, then maybe considering allowing those types of results, but then stipulating that only a Frontier Tower can target the reserves. That would increase the need to pick terrain at the beginning of the game... for both players! Home and Campaign Towers allow you to target any terrain... Frontier Tower, since it already can target any terrain, gets to target reserves.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:16 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was a balance issue. We want to make missile more powerful, it needed to be able to reach into the one place an army could hide and stalemate. However we didn't want it to be too powerful, it should be harder to reach reserves or less effective in some way.

Similar to the way that anti-magic requires a magic icon and not ID's, this requires missile icons.

The SAI we went back and forth on. Some missile SAI's are special and some are normal, for now we decided to not allow any and see if it is an issue.

I also fought for the frontier only, but it just didn't work out. The way we visualize the battlefield, reserves is the same 'distance' from all the terrains.

If this ends up being a balance issue then we can easily tweak it in 3.1
I encourage you to try to break the game at Gencon and we will tweak what doesn't work.

That gives me an idea for a battlefest army...
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syntaxerror111
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:03 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a frostwing player I definitely understand the rationale for limiting the power of anti-magic. I also understand the desire to prevent the new tower rules break the game.

However I don't agree with missile SAIs being prohibited. It seems strange that a rare or monster becomes much less reliable than their common or uncommon counterparts when shooting at reserves. There is no in-game explanation for it (a weak argument but there it is). It will encourage missile armies that bring a tower to exclude rares or monsters. That would be a shame because SAIs are a very exciting part of the game. Negating ID results seems a significant enough disadvantage to keep it in check.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 1:02 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

syntaxerror111 wrote:
As a frostwing player I definitely understand the rationale for limiting the power of anti-magic. I also understand the desire to prevent the new tower rules break the game.

However I don't agree with missile SAIs being prohibited. It seems strange that a rare or monster becomes much less reliable than their common or uncommon counterparts when shooting at reserves. There is no in-game explanation for it (a weak argument but there it is). It will encourage missile armies that bring a tower to exclude rares or monsters. That would be a shame because SAIs are a very exciting part of the game. Negating ID results seems a significant enough disadvantage to keep it in check.


Let me ask this then.

would you allow ALL missile SAI's or just those that produce 'normal' missile results? So Volley is ok, but BullsEye is not?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 1:20 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am inclined to allow all SAIs that apply to a missile attack unless it breaks the game somehow. Looking through the list, I don't see any specific problems with missile SAIs as they currently are. Seize is the exception as the fleeing units are already in reserve (so I guess nothing additional happens).
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 1:33 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I knew I remembered having this conversation before. Here is a list that was put together of all the SAI's that activate during a missile attack. The 2nd column is which ones produce normal results.

SAINormal?
BullseyeNo
Create FireminionsYes
CrushNo
ElevateNo
FirecloudNo
Flaming ArrowNo
Frost BreathNo
HowlNo
IllusionNo
ImpaleNo
NetNo
SeizeNo
Sneak AttackNo
StoneNo
VolleyYes


So, today none of these work. if you added non-special producing sai's you add two SAI's. if you added ALL, then it would be all of these.

There are some of these that I have a harder time believing would work at what is defined as an extra long distance.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 1:42 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cliff,

Many of these don't make sense when thinking of them at anything more than a short distance (ex. same terrain), but they work at a distant terrain anyways. Which ones specifically do you take issue with?

Take a look at Sneak Attack. It is worded such that it only affects an army at the same terrain as the attacker. If there is a specific ranged SAI that you think would be overpowered from a tower, perhaps rewording it to only affect an opposing army would be the solution?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 2:26 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still think SAIs should just count. Is it really overbalancing?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 10:42 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to let you know, I'm not ignoring this. I'm thinking.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 9:00 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

FYI - On monday I expect to post an updated version of the 3.0 document.

It will contain this change to Tower. I was the one who brow beat it into being no SAI's and now I can't recall why. So thank you for brow beating me back.
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