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Grove vs Enahnced Defense

 
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:27 pm GMT    Post subject: Grove vs Enahnced Defense Reply with quote

Quote:
Grove:
At the start of the Eighth Face Step move one non-dragonkin from any players Buried Unit Area to that player’s Dead Unit Area. This is not optional and must be applied to a player if possible. No army can double magic at this terrain by any means. The Grove may only be placed in the frontier.


Quote:
Enhanced Defense* Casting Cost: 3 Spell List: Amazon
Target any of your armies. One Unit or Item in the target army may double their non-SAI save or non-ID magic results until the beginning of your next turn. Select a Unit or Item that has not already doubled their results after the army’s roll is made.


The question is which takes precedence? Does Enhanced Defense apply to an army or to a unit? Does Grove only affect an Army or is that a generic term? Does Magic ID doubling happen at the army or unit level?

The intention of Grove was originally to prevent ID doubling when an army rolls for magic, but is that considered the army doubling results or does it imply any units within that army?

so, I think the intent is No doubling, but the exact wording could mean a unit can still double.

Discuss.
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:44 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Doubling Magic:
A unit or artifact that rolls an ID icon may double its magic results if it has Terrain Advantage or Dead Unit Area Advantage. Follow the standard way of calculating modifiers. Doubling will only happen once even if you meet both requirements. Magic cannot be doubled from the reserve area.
Terrain Advantage:
Elemental colors are an important part in Dragon Diceâ„¢. Whenever you roll the ID icon and match at least one of the colors in the terrain with the unit’s color that unit generates double magic points for the matching colors. Units in reserve can never double magic because they are not at a terrain. You can “split” a multi-health ID icon into the equivalent number of 1-health IDs of either color of which double normally.
Dead Unit Area Advantage:
Death (black) Magic may be doubled by matching the terrain or though the power of death itself. During a magic action with a Death race, choose the player with the most health-worth of units in their Dead Unit Area as the target. For every health-worth of units in the target player’s Dead Unit Area, you may double up to that value of ID icons of black magic. Nothing happens to the units in the target player’s Dead Unit Area – they are simply the channels through which Death sends its power.


Quote:
Dead Unit Unit Advantage looks at all players Dead Unit Area instead of a single players when doubling magic.


My only issue with this wording is that 'normal' Magic ID doubling doesn't specify it happens to an army. All it talks about is Units. i.e. that ID doubling is a unit modifier, not an army one.

Thus it seems the term 'Army' in Grove is a generic term for a group of Units rather than the object 'Army'.

So there is a disconnect in the spirit vs the letter.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:43 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would think the unit can double. Grove clearly is army based. Enhanced Defense targets an army , but only a unit doubles, so I would think at the time of resolving, it's a unit effect. The armies magic is not doubled from enhanced defense, just a units. Grove doesn't affect units.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:45 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, your second post brings up a great point. It seems Grove would never work if you applied the units wording.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:28 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a general intent when I did the restructuring if something says you can't do something it wins. In retrospect I never wrote that down. Oops.

The thought would be an Army is made up with units and items. The army is not able to double so none of its contents can double.

You are correct the wording is well not ideal.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:09 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I'm not sure this is actually doubling...
as you must still pay for the spell.
So in essence true doubling would be

Quote:
Doubling Magic:
A unit or artifact that rolls an ID icon may double its magic results if it has Terrain
Advantage or Dead Unit Area Advantage. Follow the standard way of calculating
modifiers. Doubling will only happen once even if you meet both requirements.
Magic cannot be doubled from the reserve area.
Terrain Advantage:
Elemental colors are an important part in Dragon Diceâ„¢. Whenever you roll the ID
icon and match at least one of the colors in the terrain with the unit’s color that
unit generates double magic points for the matching colors.
Units in reserve can never double magic because they are not at a terrain.
You can “split” a multi-health ID icon into the equivalent number of 1-health IDs
of either color of which double normally.


here no ID is used
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:27 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Amazons may only cast Elemental Spells from reserves.




Quote:
Magic cannot be doubled from the reserve area.


Enhanced defense can't be used to double magic on units in the reserve.


Quote:
Enhanced Defense* Casting Cost: 3 Spell List: Amazon
Target any of your armies. One Unit or Item in the target army may double their non-SAI save or non-ID
magic results until the beginning of your next turn. Select a Unit or Item that has not already doubled their
results after the army’s roll is made.



it almost seems like they really can't cast any magic doubling... from the reserves... the way its worded.
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DEEPBLUEB2
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:36 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

So you can't double magic at the grove though Enhanced Magic.
You can't double magic from the reserves.

Enhanced defense (magic) must be cast from the reserves...
and target an army not in reserves if to use magic doubling?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 10:01 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are correct magic may not be doubled from reserves.

You could cast Enhanced Defense on your reserve army and it could double a save result.

You can be in reserves and cast Enhanced Defense on an army at a terrain where it can double 1 unit or items magic or save result.

You can be at a terrain and cast it on any of your armies as well.
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DEEPBLUEB2
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 10:06 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

rules wording

Last edited by DEEPBLUEB2 on Tue Aug 02, 2016 10:25 am GMT; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 10:09 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You can be at a terrain and cast it on any of your armies as well.


Says
Quote:
Amazons may only cast Elemental Spells from reserves.



So what does that mean?


Amazons are restricted to only elemental spells from the reserves... but can still cast elemental spells and basic spells at terrains?

Actually how could they cast anything but elemental spells in the reserves?
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DEEPBLUEB2
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 10:23 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I'm guessing Amazons can cast elemental spells, and basic spells at terrains.


and then,

Quote:
Amazons may only cast Elemental Spells from reserves
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 10:26 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

DEEPBLUEB2 wrote:



Quote:
You can be at a terrain and cast it on any of your armies as well.


Says
Quote:
Amazons may only cast Elemental Spells from reserves.



So what does that mean?


Amazons are restricted to only elemental spells from the reserves... but can still cast elemental spells and basic spells at terrains?

Actually how could they cast anything but elemental spells in the reserves?


They can only cast Elemental Spells from Reserves. You are correct there.

That restriction is only when the army is in the reserves. I can see how you are reading it a different way.

Look at is as "While in Reserves Amazons may only cast elemental spells."
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