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Dragon Diceā„¢ 3.0 Rules - July 1st,2016
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 11:58 am GMT    Post subject: Dragon Diceā„¢ 3.0 Rules - July 1st,2016 Reply with quote

We've been talking about the 3.0 rules for a LONG time. We finally came to the realization that we would never be able to do it all in one single release. We also accepted that it would never be final. A living game should have a living rule book. So this is not the end of the changes, but it is the first step on our journey.

The biggest changes are in how SAIs resolve (individually) and spell list changes (who can cast what).

This 3.0 release is mainly foundation, but with a few specific tweaks here and there. We have planned changes in 3.1,3.2,etc. for addressing SAI's, Racial Abilities, Expansion Dice, Spells, etc.

http://www.sfr-inc.com/Rules-3.0-20160701.pdf

BTW - We are still tweaking formatting issues (will be releasing as they are fixed) and working on a graphical version (like the starter rules), but these are the core rules and changes that will be used at Gencon next month.
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 10:56 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many thanks to those who are reviewing these rules and providing feedback. A newer version with some typos fixed is listed here:

http://www.sfr-inc.com/Rules-3.0-20160702.pdf
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virtualflesh
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:46 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

cliffwiggs wrote:
Many thanks to those who are reviewing these rules and providing feedback. A newer version with some typos fixed is listed here:

http://www.sfr-inc.com/Rules-3.0-20160702.pdf


Couple of questions:
1) Page 7, Melee action: When controlling a terrain's 8th face, does a marching army's Melee action permit an opposing counter-attack?
2) Page 8, Dead Unit Area Advantage: Do buried units apply?
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chuckpint
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:18 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

virtualflesh wrote:
1) Page 7, Melee action: When controlling a terrain's 8th face, does a marching army's Melee action permit an opposing counter-attack?

It does, but I'm really curious as you why you ask this. I can't find anything that would lead me to the conclusion that you can't counter-attack.
virtualflesh wrote:
2) Page 8, Dead Unit Area Advantage: Do buried units apply?
No, because the Buried Unit Area is clearly separate from the Dead Unit Area (see page 4).
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virtualflesh
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 9:05 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuckpint wrote:
virtualflesh wrote:
1) Page 7, Melee action: When controlling a terrain's 8th face, does a marching army's Melee action permit an opposing counter-attack?

It does, but I'm really curious as you why you ask this. I can't find anything that would lead me to the conclusion that you can't counter-attack.

It's a subtlety. The Action Main section on Page 6 states when each action is allowed. Then on page 7, each action first emphasizes "If the <action> icon (a <symbol>) is showing on the terrain die, then only...". In abiding by the permissive aspect of the rulebook, it felt like each action's emphasis on permission over-rode, or somehow restricted or redefined, the Page 6 Action Main section's dictate. So, it triggered a question in my mind.. what section is the authority? Then more questions.. maybe there is a special case for the 8th face (i.e., if the icon is not showing)? I understand logically there is no question as the sentence specifies "if the icon is showing". But, it being the first sentence makes me feel its emphasis and believing it's dictating entirely when the action can occur (i.e., not cooperatively with the main section's dictate). My preference would be for the actions to specify the what, and let the main section specify the when. This doesn't solve the problem with rulebook icon hunters who see and read only the icon's text, unaware of context. So, like this explanation, I understand it's not a easy matter. Maybe the action sections could instead refer to the main section on when the action can occur to minimize questions of authority.
chuckpint wrote:
virtualflesh wrote:
2) Page 8, Dead Unit Area Advantage: Do buried units apply?
No, because the Buried Unit Area is clearly separate from the Dead Unit Area (see page 4).

The rules clearly specify only the DUA in this advantage. Again, another feeling is that units in the BUA are dead+ than DUA units. So I suppose my question should have been: why does a Death race not leverage buried units?
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virtualflesh
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 12:47 pm GMT    Post subject: Spells - Difference between "X" and multiple casti Reply with quote

The spell list has a new "X" reference, indicating "select a value of X when casting the spell".

I don't understand its distinction from the general rule of "Spells may be cast as many times as desired", unless the spell restricts it.

For example, these 2 spells have no casting restriction and effectively state:
- Decay costs 2X, subtracting X melee result from the target army.
- Swamp Fever costs 3, targeting 3-health-worth of enemy units.

Applying the general rule of multiple castings, then a roll of 10 magic can produce, not including casting mixtures, either:
- 5 casts of Decay cost 10 total, affecting 5 melee results
- 3 casts of Swamp Fever cost 9 total, affecting 9 health-worth of units

What's the difference between the "X" and the general rule? Wouldn't a simplification of Decay be:
- Decay costs 2, subtracting 1 melee result from the target army.

Applying the multiple castings allowance produces the same result?
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:41 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

FYI - I'm busy starting to get ready for Gencon, but if no one has replied by Monday afternoon I'll write up something after I've had the time to put into the reply.
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chuckpint
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:52 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a difference, but it's subtle. Take for example, Decay. Casting cost is 2X. So if you have 10 points of black Goblin magic, you could cast it as 2x5 to reduce one army's melee results by 5. Or by using the statement about the spell being cast as many times as desired, you can cast it 2x3 on one army, and 2x2 on another army. Without that statement, you could only cast it 2x5.

We still have a problem with the X notation being inconsistent. Not all spells that can be cast multiple times to greater effect are noted with X. Here's the list:
Restless Dead
Exhume
Wilding
Wind Walk
Transmute Rock to Mud
Deluge
Flashfire
Enhanced Defense
Enhanced Offense
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:07 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

While we have had mainly positive feedback from the 3.0 rules, we acknowledge they are not perfect. We are fixing items as quickly as we can and will release updates as soon as they are ready.

I had made the decision to release them anyway because every rules update contains hidden issues that only come out "in the wild". The wildest games always happen at Gencon and I couldn't wait another year to shake out the issues.

For anyone who has had issues, please accept my apologizes and bear with us. A ruleset of this size with this many components and this level of complexity is not going to be perfect out of the gate.

These are the growing pains we must go through to get to a better place than where we were.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:28 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just spotted this thread. I'll print out the current draft today and give it a thorough reading.
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 11:12 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for reminding me.

Please use this version.

http://www.sfr-inc.com/Rules-3.0-20160711.pdf

To let everyone know. We are stopping all changes and this will be THE version in use at Gencon. The good bad and ugly.

JohnK will be the Tournament Director and will make all rulings, so if you think you found a loophole and want to try to exploit it; I suggest explaining it to him before it happens to make things easier.

We are giving this version to a professional editor who will be doing updates and formatting. When she is done and after any issues discovered at Gencon we will release that cleaned up version.
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Indrid Cold
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:48 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuckpint wrote:
There is a difference, but it's subtle. Take for example, Decay. Casting cost is 2X. So if you have 10 points of black Goblin magic, you could cast it as 2x5 to reduce one army's melee results by 5. Or by using the statement about the spell being cast as many times as desired, you can cast it 2x3 on one army, and 2x2 on another army. Without that statement, you could only cast it 2x5.

We still have a problem with the X notation being inconsistent. Not all spells that can be cast multiple times to greater effect are noted with X. Here's the list:
Restless Dead
Exhume
Wilding
Wind Walk
Transmute Rock to Mud
Deluge
Flashfire
Enhanced Defense
Enhanced Offense


Does this mean that only spells marked with the X in the cost can be "stacked" on one single army or unit?

For example, watery double, this does not have the X indicator in the cost. Does this mean you cannot cast it multiple times upon an army in one turn, to create multiple saves? You can cast it multiple times but only once on a particular army.

Am I understanding this X rule correctly?
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TecnoSmurf
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 2:44 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's something I'd like to know as well ^^
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bluewizard
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:10 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indrid Cold wrote:


Does this mean that only spells marked with the X in the cost can be "stacked" on one single army or unit?

For example, watery double, this does not have the X indicator in the cost. Does this mean you cannot cast it multiple times upon an army in one turn, to create multiple saves? You can cast it multiple times but only once on a particular army.

Am I understanding this X rule correctly?


Spells that have X in them are targeting an army or a unit to do some kind of damage or resurrect/promote, etc. These are the things that generally do greater effect. Some spells don't need them as they can stack just one at a time no problem (like saves).

Once something does damage the army or unit then gets to roll a save from that damage.

Lets take Hailstorm as an example.

Lets say we want to do 5 damage. That will cost 10 mana. Once the spell resolves the army then gets to roll for saves.

If we don't do all that damage at once and cast hailstorm 5 different times the army would then be allowed to roll for a save for each point of damage when the spell resolves.

Now you can do that if you want for some reason but I doubt you would want to.

Spells can be cast as many times as you want. Now some spells have restrictions built into them and they must be followed. Like Lightning Strike can only target a single unit once per magic action.

I hope that helps.
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virtualflesh
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 10:00 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuckpint wrote:
Take for example, Decay. Casting cost is 2X. So if you have 10 points of black Goblin magic, you could cast it as 2x5 to reduce one army's melee results by 5. Or by using the statement about the spell being cast as many times as desired, you can cast it 2x3 on one army, and 2x2 on another army. Without that statement, you could only cast it 2x5.

bluewizard wrote:
Lets take Hailstorm as an example.

Lets say we want to do 5 damage. That will cost 10 mana. Once the spell resolves the army then gets to roll for saves.

If we don't do all that damage at once and cast hailstorm 5 different times the army would then be allowed to roll for a save for each point of damage when the spell resolves.


Something just clicked for me on these examples. I now see the distinction and offer this interpretation: the "X" notation is the spell Level.

So, in bluewizard's example, two different magic actions are described:
A) Level 5 Hailstorm casted once
B) Level 1 Hailstorm casted 5 times

In either action, the target rolls once for each cast. Each offer their own tactic. A) is the nuclear bomb, while B) is death by a thousand cuts.

Decay dropped the "X" in the 7/11 version, but it specifically has no response roll. Casting a low Level multiple times on one target versus casting a high Level once produces the same result.

With this interpretation, I also offer that every spell could have the Level attribute, accompanied by a maximum Level where restricted. The specified cost is per Level.
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virtualflesh
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 6:41 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

virtualflesh wrote:
Something just clicked for me on these examples. I now see the distinction and offer this interpretation: the "X" notation is the spell Level.

So, in bluewizard's example, two different magic actions are described:
A) Level 5 Hailstorm casted once
B) Level 1 Hailstorm casted 5 times

With this interpretation, I also offer that every spell could have the Level attribute, accompanied by a maximum Level where restricted. The specified cost is per Level.


I'm not sure if anyone agrees with this interpretation, but it seems to easily settle into the concept of sequential resolution. A "Level" and/or "Max Level" gives players something a bit more intuitive at first sight.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 7:26 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just want to make sure I am not missing something:

1) Group monsters are gone, right?
2) There are no longer any exceptions to the general magic value of units. For example, Vampires now count as 3 points of magic using units in army construction.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 8:25 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

virtualflesh wrote:
virtualflesh wrote:
Something just clicked for me on these examples. I now see the distinction and offer this interpretation: the "X" notation is the spell Level.

So, in bluewizard's example, two different magic actions are described:
A) Level 5 Hailstorm casted once
B) Level 1 Hailstorm casted 5 times

With this interpretation, I also offer that every spell could have the Level attribute, accompanied by a maximum Level where restricted. The specified cost is per Level.


I'm not sure if anyone agrees with this interpretation, but it seems to easily settle into the concept of sequential resolution. A "Level" and/or "Max Level" gives players something a bit more intuitive at first sight.


I have no problem with folks thinking of it as an analogy. It isn't quite a Level concept so to say though. Some do getting large dice. Some only effect a die of a certain size. The problem is the effecting a die of a certain size is more of a strategic thing than a leveling up in my mind.

It is a very interesting concept to think about though. I am glad that my explanation helped above.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 8:26 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

shoesan wrote:
Just want to make sure I am not missing something:

1) Group monsters are gone, right?
2) There are no longer any exceptions to the general magic value of units. For example, Vampires now count as 3 points of magic using units in army construction.


You are correct on both accounts.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 7:44 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Amazons may only cast Elemental Spells from reserves."
I assume this is a typo and should read "may not cast Spells from reserves"?
If not , what color elemental spells can they cast? Thanks Neutral
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