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SAI's in 3.0

 
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 4:08 pm GMT    Post subject: SAI's in 3.0 Reply with quote

I've seen a few questions, public and private about this. So I wanted to point something out.

For this discussion I'm using this version of the rules:
http://www.sfr-inc.com/Rules-3.0-20160711.pdf

I'm curious if this is clear or do you have issues with the wording.

Quote:
3. Identify any SAIs that have not already been applied.
4. The player then notes the order to apply those SAIs.
5. The player will then apply those SAIs in that order.
6. Calculate Roll Results.
Once a die has been rolled and it’s been placed in the waiting effects line it will resolve at its assigned time.
Each SAI rolled operates independent of the other and the results cannot be combined unless the SAI specifically indicates that it can be.


For many things this isn't a change, but note that SAI's are no longer grouped together. So if two Oak Lords both roll smite, it is not 'resolve 6 smite'. You resolve one Oak Lord for 3 smite and then the other for another 3 smite. This means that against an all monster army, they would do nothing.

Pair that with this:
Quote:
Target your spells:
The target of a spell or the conditions for a spell’s effect to occur must exist at the time spells are announced.


Since SAI's resolve before you calculate your results that means that SAI's like Ferry resolve before you know how much magic you have to cast which is before you can announce spells.

i.e. You can still use Ferry in Magic Action roll to create an army and then target that army with spells.

and finally the grandfather rulebreaker of them all:
Quote:
Cantrip: (any non-maneuver)
During a magic action or magic negation roll, Cantrip generates X magic results.
Cantrip generates X magic results that allow you to cast spells as a magic action.


It creates a magic action. So in a melee roll, you could resolve Ferry to create a new army(as above) and then use a Cantrip to cast a spell on the newly formed army since it exists before the spells from the cantrip are announced.

Similarly, multiple cantrips must be resolved individually (so no 8 point spells via cantrip), but you don't announce those spells until it is each cantrips turn to be individually resolved.

Thus you could use one cantrip from a scalder to cast Firestorm and if you roll badly cause one of your commons to die. Another cantrip from that same roll could then resurrect that common, even though you didn't know if it was going to die!

As long as you line up your SAI's and resolve them one at a time w/o getting ahead of yourself you will be fine and there are some interesting strategies that were not possible before.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 4:53 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oy. That is some interesting information O.o

Haven't read through the rules that thoroughly but Cantrip not being stackable is heavy.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 5:51 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

TecnoSmurf wrote:

Haven't read through the rules that thoroughly but Cantrip not being stackable is heavy.
Yes, but it solves so many issues we have in wording some rules. no more do we have to worry about 'ok, but what if I get 20 cantrip results during my melee counter roll and do blah blah blah blah blah and that breaks the game?'

A cantrip is supposed to be a small super fast thing.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:39 pm GMT    Post subject: Re: SAI's in 3.0 Reply with quote

cliffwiggs wrote:


For many things this isn't a change, but note that SAI's are no longer grouped together.

So if two Oak Lords both roll smite, it is not 'resolve 6 smite'. You resolve one Oak Lord for 3 smite and then the other for another 3 smite. This means that against an all monster army, they would do nothing.



Is there a specific reason Smite was not allowed to be grouped together? Earlier in your post you alluded to there being SAIs that can be grouped together:

cliffwiggs wrote:
Once a die has been rolled and it’s been placed in the waiting effects line it will resolve at its assigned time.
Each SAI rolled operates independent of the other and the results cannot be combined unless the SAI specifically indicates that it can be.


Which SAIs can be? And why was Smite excluded from this list? It kinda nerfs the Oak Lord. And it kinda nerfs smite in general. Three monsters that roll Smite fighting an all rare army only kills three units instead of four.
I liked just being able to say "take 12 points of Smite" and being done with it.

Maybe the goal was to weaken Smite?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:41 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

TecnoSmurf wrote:

Haven't read through the rules that thoroughly but Cantrip not being stackable is heavy.


Well, there goes John K's strategy of getting you to attack his rare magic units and relying on at least two cantrips to allow him to cast open grave as a way to quickly move units to from one terrain to another! (of course Open Grave is now an Undead racial spell, but that's beside the point!)
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 2:57 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

@cliff
I am not saying it's bad, I just haven't found it yet. I think it is a good change.

As for Smite. Meh. Haven't seen a Rare only army. I don't think It'll even work.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:39 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

shoesan wrote:
TecnoSmurf wrote:

Haven't read through the rules that thoroughly but Cantrip not being stackable is heavy.


Well, there goes John K's strategy of getting you to attack his rare magic units and relying on at least two cantrips to allow him to cast open grave as a way to quickly move units to from one terrain to another! (of course Open Grave is now an Undead racial spell, but that's beside the point!)


it's about time someone else dominated battlefest at gencon.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:41 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

TecnoSmurf wrote:
@cliff
I am not saying it's bad, I just haven't found it yet. I think it is a good change.

As for Smite. Meh. Haven't seen a Rare only army. I don't think It'll even work.


"haven't found it yet"? what were you looking for?

As for rare armies. I have seen them a lot. Especially when playing 60 health. Even at 36 health, all Dragoon Riders and Charkins is a powerful combo.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:45 am GMT    Post subject: Re: SAI's in 3.0 Reply with quote

shoesan wrote:

Is there a specific reason Smite was not allowed to be grouped together?


Specific? no. There is a general rule that SAI's which state it can be joined, but I don't think any currently do.

The concept here was that each unit is doing their own thing.

When we do the 'sai update' revision, some SAI's will become stackable again.

I don't think this will harm smite as much as you fear, but I'll let games in the wild be the true test.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 2:42 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

cliffwiggs wrote:
TecnoSmurf wrote:
@cliff
I am not saying it's bad, I just haven't found it yet. I think it is a good change.

As for Smite. Meh. Haven't seen a Rare only army. I don't think It'll even work.


"haven't found it yet"? what were you looking for?


Öhm... let me rephrase that: It hasn't occured to me that it's a thing, because I just flipped through the rulebook.

Ok, I have never played anything else then 36 points, so I never thought about it. ^^
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 7:38 am GMT    Post subject: Re: SAI's in 3.0 Reply with quote

shoesan wrote:
It kinda nerfs the Oak Lord. And it kinda nerfs smite in general. Three monsters that roll Smite fighting an all rare army only kills three units instead of four.


I have some more time today, so wanted to reply to this in more detail. For now let's assume that no SAI's stack (not true long term, but for this post).

There will always be situations where you can't use the SAI that way you would wish. The example of all monsters vs all rares is correct, but how often would that really happen? I would be very happy that three monsters were able to roll their SAI's and killed 9 health. That in itself is a rare enough occurrence.(1 in 125 depending on army makeup) In the past we've catered to the 'what if' roll and it complicates the rules for the edge case that very rarely happens. This time we catered to the more frequent occurrences.

Excluding the example of 'vs all rare'. Let's look at the Oak Lord, or any die that only does 3 SAI instead of the more normal 4.

These dice would be unable to affect an all monster army. It gives a benefit to monster, that isn't bad.
These dice would only be able to affect one die in an all uncommon army. That is a bit more disturbing, but how often are you going to face someone playing all uncommons? I view this as another 'what if' but not a common occurrence.

The biggest change to this is cantrip. IF you get three cantrips (1 in 216 depending on army makeup), then you can only cast three 3pt spells instead of 4 3pt spells. You also can not combine them to resurrect a larger health unit or cast game changing magic. I'm ok with that because it is a cantrip, by definition a small piece of minor magic.

I ran a query on my dice database and these are the SAI's that show up with only three results on a few dice. are those dice nerfed?
Fly - It gives normal results, so not affected.
Rend - ditto
Cantrip - You can't cast a 4pt spell at all and you could only cast one 2pt spell instead of 2.
Trample - normal results
Smite - discussed above
Convert - similar to smite, only on Vampire
Scare - similar to Convert, what was it with the undead
vanish - normal-ish results
wither - normal-ish modifier
dragonkin breath - same as smite
Impale - not point based
attune - not point based
bash - not point based
wayfare - normal results and not point based
decapitate - not point based (only items seem to have this pattern)
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 2:58 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess it just stood out to me as I designed a Battlefest army for this year around the Oak Lord. And Soiled Ground. And open Grave. And Path.

Just coincidence, but these changes really are making me have to scrap it. Obviously you can't make rules around an army.... It was just frustrating to put all the thought I did into this army, only to see every advantage I was going for lost. Ha.

When Path changed, it affected the army, but I think I could have lived with it. Soiled Ground and Open Grave changes meant I was gonna have to tweak the magic aspects, but probably doable... Lichs for Hedge Wizards, but that was going to affect Path potential, so would have had to work at the solution.

Non-stacking Smites pulled the rug out.

If I had some time, I'd have like to play someone (John?) with the old rules to see how it would have fared (sometimes things just don't work as well as you think they might), but who actually has time at GenCon?!
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 7:18 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is the point of Cloak giving magic results during a melee or missile attack? It does not mention as Cantrip does that you can use them as a magic action.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:15 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

The primary reason for providing magic results during melee is to be able to provide to other effects such as the Necromactic Wave spell.

Giving it a result for missile rolls is not useful today, but provides the opportunity to introduce new effects that could use it in the future w/o having to change the SAI description at that time.

It is not a Cantrip and does not start a magic action. It simply produces results that you may not need at that time. Similar to how Trample produces melee results during a missile roll that you don't need.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:42 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the pluses of smite not being stackable is that it gives a little more power to the monsters. Anything that can help them (other than the troll) is good in my book.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 7:04 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indrid Cold wrote:
One of the pluses of smite not being stackable is that it gives a little more power to the monsters. Anything that can help them (other than the troll) is good in my book.


I've heard this from more than one person and it confuses me. There is only one die in the game that is affected vs monsters, the oak lord.(because it has 3 smite on a face)

All other dice with smite always have 4, so there is no difference vs monsters if smites stack or don't stack.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:07 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

cliffwiggs wrote:
Indrid Cold wrote:
One of the pluses of smite not being stackable is that it gives a little more power to the monsters. Anything that can help them (other than the troll) is good in my book.


I've heard this from more than one person and it confuses me. There is only one die in the game that is affected vs monsters, the oak lord.(because it has 3 smite on a face)

All other dice with smite always have 4, so there is no difference vs monsters if smites stack or don't stack.


Ah you are correct.
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