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chrisbogert
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 6:01 am GMT    Post subject: Anyone up for a game? Reply with quote

Been a while since I played on here, anyone up for a game?

I haven't seen the 3.0 rules yet, but would like to learn what changes and stuff have been made.

Downloaded the latest (I think) release of them, and will have a browse though them.

Before starting the game, can anyone tell me what parts of the rules have changed? Then I can keep an eye out for when I'm reading through it.

Chris
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 6:56 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

The two biggest things are that special SAIs resolve separately and some of the spells were given to different races.

Other than that the core of the game is unchanged

oh and the tower has it's new ability. and one or two of the rare/problematic SAI's were buffed
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 9:13 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh okay, so it's stuff I'd probably look up anyhow. That should be easy to do then.

So, anyone up for a game? I'll start thinking about my army.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 9:21 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wanted to give someone else a chance, but I'll try it.

what format, how much health, any restrictions?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 9:48 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about a normal 36pt match. No restictions I suppose. Do you want to run the board? or I can do it.

I'll start making an army soon.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 10:14 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

when I run the board I tend to put off doing it. so maybe better for you to?

Here is something I haven't played in a while, so I'll try it out. Hope I did this right.

Home - Feyland City
Mummy
Wight
Wight
Zombie
Zombie
Lich
Heucuva
Heucuva
Apparition
Apparition


Frontier - Wasteland Dragons Lair
Mummy
Wight
Wight
Zombie
Lich
Heucuva
Heucuva
Apparition
Apparition

Horde - (I wasn't gonna win the horde roll anyway)
Zombie

Summoning Pool-
Black Wyrm
Black Wyrm
Death Dragonkin Champion
Death Dragonsteed
Death Dragonmount
Death Dragonfoal
Death Dragonfoal
Death Dragonfoal
Feyland Woods
Feyland Village
Feyland Bridge
Wasteland Woods
Wasteland Village
Wasteland Bridge
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 9:45 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, got my dice out on the table and made an army of dwarves. I put it all in the army builder to make sure it is legal, and then both our armies in the BBcode board.

Here is my army list:

Build Points: 36
Total Health: 36
Total Mages: 12

Home Army (16)
1 Wizard
2 Thaumaturgist
5 Theurgist
1 Gold Medallion

Campaign Army (2)
1 Sergeant

Horde Army (1Cool
2 Warlord
1 Skirmisher
2 Sergeant
1 Footman
1 Red Trebuchet

Home terrain: Highland City
Frontier terrain: Highland Temple

Summoning Pool
1 Gold/Red Hybrid Drake
1 Gold/Red Hybrid Wyrm
1 Gold Dragonkin Champion
1 Gold Dragonchamp
1 Gold Dragonhero
1 Gold Dragonmount
1 Gold Dragontroop
1 Highland Village

Here is the board setup:
If I missed anything or messed up placement let me know.

************************************************************************
Cliff
BUA
Cliff
DUA
Cliff
Reserve Army
Cliff
Summoning Pool
*
Cliff
Cliff
Cliff
Home Army
Chris's Home
Frontier
Cliff's Home
Chris
Home Army
Chris
Chris
*
Chris
Reserve Army
Chris
Summoning Pool
Chris
DUA
Chris
BUA

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chrisbogert
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 8:05 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolled and got 7 maneuvers with my horde army. Don't think you can beat that with the little zombie fellow.

I'll let you go first and take the fronteir terrain..

Rolled terrains: my home 4 missile, fronteir 7, goes down to 6 melee.

Roll your terrain and then go ahead. I'll update the board with the terrains after you roll yours.
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:30 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, I disappeared on you over the weekend. I've been spending my weekends getting ready for Gencon and not on the computer.

Rolling my Home terrain:
Feyland City - 1 Magic

then I get the first turn...

First march at my home
No manuever attempt (side note below*)
Magic action:
Mummy - 3 Save
Lich - 4 Cantrip
Wight - 3 Save
Wight - 3 Save
Heucuva - 3 Melee
Heucuva - 2 Magic
Zombie - 1 Melee
Zombie - 1 Save
Apparition - 1 Melee
Apparition - 1 Save

6 black magic that was pitiful, but right at the lower edge of -1 StdDev. bleh.

summon two dragon foals.

Second march at the frontier
maneuver attempt.

Mummy - 4 Melee
Lich - 3 Save
Wight - 2 Melee
Wight - 2 Save
Heucuva - 2 Melee
Heucuva - 2 Magic
Zombie - 2 Melee
Apparition - 1 ID
Apparition - 1 Melee

1 maneuver

If I win, turn it up.

Either way, attack in melee.

Mummy - 3 Wither
Lich - 4 Cantrip
Wight - 2 Melee
Wight - 3 Melee
Heucuva - 3 Melee
Heucuva - 2 Melee
Zombie - 1 Save
Apparition - 2 Magic
Apparition - 1 Melee

Cantrip first, summon the last dragon foal. Under these new rules he does NOT get to roll with the armies attack.

Wither is just an insult, -3 to all rolls for as long as it lasts.

Then 11 damage. He's very dead and can't counter attack. wither will go poof.

Reserves-
...
hmmm
...
As much as I want my home. Being an all black race, I can't afford to allow you to get control of a temple.

Leave the Zombie at your home.
Retreat all from my home. (the two dkin go back to the summoning pool)
Retreat the mages from the frontier leaving 4 dice.

EOT
(pending the maneuver roll at the frontier, but it doesn't affect my decisions)

*- this is an interesting case. I am on a 1. I want to be on a 1. I am STILL choosing not to attempt to bring in a minor because the 1:8 risk of the disaster is scaring me vs the 3 in 8 to get double saves on a Woods. I can cast magic for at least three turns before I would leave this terrain. If this isn't the time to bring in a minor, when is?
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chrisbogert
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:03 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

No worries. Getting ready to show off the 3.0 rules at Gencon? Wish I could go... a little far though.

counter-maneuver: ID = 2, terrain stays at 6.

oh no, my poor Sergeant got beat into the ground.

Just to make sure I got all that moving around correct, take a look:

Turn Sequence: Cliff, Chris

************************************************************************
Cliff
BUA
Cliff
DUA
Cliff
Reserve Army
Cliff
Summoning Pool
*
Cliff
Cliff
Cliff
Home Army
Chris's Home
Frontier
Cliff's Home
Chris
Home Army
Chris
Chris
*
Chris
Reserve Army
Chris
Summoning Pool
Chris
DUA
Chris
BUA

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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:43 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

looks correct. bring the pain.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:12 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Um, not sure how I missed this... still don't see it clarified:
Quote:

Cantrip first, summon the last dragon foal. Under these new rules he does NOT get to roll with the armies attack.


What changed that the dragon foal would not get to roll? Does this mean that units brought back by a Troll also do not get to roll in the current action? So, no trolls bringing back trolls bringing back trolls? And a Necromancer can't cast Necromantic Wave from a Cantrip in the middle of an attack and suddenly get to have other units count magic as melee for that attack?
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:51 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

This one is hard because it is one of those rule changes by omission. So there isn't a place I can say 'this is where it says you can't' The rule that says you can just isn't there any longer.

I hate to put in a rule that says what you can't do, but maybe in this one instance it is needed...

Here is what I could find in the rules:

Resolution of Die Rolls has one point where it says to roll the dice. It isn't listed anywhere else.

Gold medallion says:
"Roll any units returned and include their results to the current roll."

Regenerate says:
"Roll any units returned and include their results to the current roll."

Path does not say that.
Resurrect Dead does not say that.
Summon Dragonkin does not say that.
Promote Dragonkin does not say that.
Promotion doesn't say you can roll. (i.e. Wild Growth)

A Cantrip during a melee roll can introduce modifiers that would affect that in process roll. The SAI resolves after you roll dice, but prior to checking what modifiers exist.

Does that help?
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 12:07 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, that doesn't help at all.

It does not say to add the results into an armies roll for those others because they are spells. Spells just do what they say they do.

Its because the spells came by way of a Cantrip rolled during melee (or save or missile) that you would add the results from new units to the current roll. The Cantrip finalizes, bringing in a new unit, and that new unit is part of an army that is saving, so it rolls for saves because the results have not been finalized.

What you changed was that SAIs don't stack. So two Cantrips resolve as one for 4 points, then another for 4 points. But they still happen before normal results are finalized. I don't see what changed now from before. If the roll has not finalized, why wouldn't they be rolled since they are new members of the army that is currently taking an action?

If you cast Watery Double from a Cantrip during a save roll, you would get to add the saves from that to your current save roll, right? Why wouldn't bringing new members into the acting army be done the same way?

Say you were saving from a missile attack, rolled Cantrip, and pathed a Scalder unit into the army. You would get the auto save from the racial ability, right?

I just don't see what changed that makes this a new interpretation. SAIs still resolve first, before normal results.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 12:33 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 2.9 rules contained this phrase:
Quote:

Components that are brought into an army with a Special or Unique resolution type SAI during any roll, either directly (e.g. Regenerate) or through the use of SAI-generated spells (e.g. from a Cantrip rolled during a non-magic action), are rolled immediately and the results applied with the results of their army.


That is what allowed their results to join the in progress roll. That phrase is not in the 3.0 book and the justification for my statement.

However, taking a step back into whether that is the 'right' direction for the game. None of us are 'novice players' anymore, but is it not more intuitive for their results to not be included? Is it confusing to have modifiers take immediate effect, but for dice to have a 'summoning sickness' and not get to take an action? Is it more intuitive to be all or nothing?
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 1:02 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I wouldn't just exclude the text that used to clarify it. If you don't want it to work that way anymore, then I think you still need to put in a statement that clearly states the new units would not roll in the current attack. If you don't then it can legitimately be argued both ways, and that is not what is wanted for the new rules (ambiguity).

So, either way, I think there needs to be clarification added, since it was being done one way, and it really can still be argued that the new rules didn't change that. All you removed was a clarification on which way it was to be done. Now its ambiguous.

Personally, I like it the old way. As far as what is intuitive, probably different for different people. Once its established and defined, I think people would understand it either way without too much trouble, so I don't know if intuitiveness should be a factor. They are called Special Action Icons for a reason... they have special rules.

SAI's took a bit of a hit with the new way they work (resolved one at a time... they don't stack). Not allowing units to be added to army rolls would weaken them even further.

Either way, how is this going to be played at GenCon? Since its no longer specifically addressed in the rules, would John fall back to what we used to do, or is your interpretation going to rule and everyone who plays needs to become aware of that?

And I apologize for having a rules discussion in the middle of a game!
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:16 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I'll take my turn before Cliff answers your question.

First march: at my home
5 maneuvers 3 ID, 2 ID. Don't think Mr. Zombie can beat that, so roll down to 3 magic.
Roll for magic: ID 3, doubled to 6, 2 magic icon = 8
Cast summon dragonkin x2 bring in the Dragonmount

Second march:
at your home terrain
Manuever up to 2 at your home terrain.
Last
Pull that army back to the reserve.

EOT

Turn Sequence: Cliff, Chris

************************************************************************
Cliff
BUA
Cliff
DUA
Cliff
Reserve Army
Cliff
Summoning Pool
*
Cliff
Cliff
Cliff
Home Army
Chris's Home
Frontier
Cliff's Home
Chris
Home Army
Chris
Chris
*
Chris
Reserve Army
Chris
Summoning Pool
Chris
DUA
Chris
BUA

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:46 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok, this should be expected.

First march at the frontier, unopposed to 7
no action possible.

Second march magic in reserves
Mummy - 3 Wither
Lich - 3 Save
Lich - 4 Cantrip
Wight - 2 Melee
Wight - 2 Save
Heucuva - 2 ID
Heucuva - 3 Magic
Heucuva - 3 Melee
Heucuva - 2 Magic
Zombie - 1 ID
Zombie - 1 ID
Apparition - 1 Melee
Apparition - 1 Magic
Apparition - 1 Magic
Apparition - 1 Magic

12 magic.
There are only three spells I can cast from reserves.
I have no dead.
Spend 6 to cast open grave on my frontier army. though I doubt I'll need to protect an army.
Spend 4 for a restless Dead on my frontier army. though I doubt it's even possible for that army to need maneuvers.
I almost skipped my action.

Reinforce the non-mages to the frontier.
Retreat the zombie from your home.
EOT
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:03 am GMT    Post subject: Rules Questions Reply with quote

With the change to how Resolving Die rolls and how the interactions with SAIs and Spells are applied there have been a few changes. Things now happen in a sequential sequence of events. The questions you bring up do have some changes to how the game is played. The biggest change that effects everything you identified is we no longer have a rule that says you get to roll the dice that join the army from some kind of effect. Each affect would have to indicate if the effected dice get to roll.

So with Summon Dragonkin and extending to Resurrect Dead as neither spell indicates the joining unit can roll it just joins the army with no other action.

As a note Dragonkin that are not rolled do not get their automatic save either.

You have a question with a Scaldar getting Pathed in defense of a missile attack. That Scaldar would get its save as it is not tied to it being rolled.

Regeneration specifically does indicate that the units that are returned are rolled. When those units are rolled we are still in the SAI resolution step so if they get any SAIs they get to apply those as well.
A thing to note here is if you have the spell Flash Fire on that army those units returning with Regenerate would not get to re-roll via Flash Fire as we are in the resolving SAI step which is after the re-roll step.

The spell watery double is a little different as it adds a save to the result. This happens way after the SAI step in the Modifiers that Add of Calculate Roll Results. So there isn’t any issue there.

As a note there isn’t really a concept of normal/finalized like with the 2.x rules. That is one of the major changes with the 3.0 rule set.

There are some minor and some significant changes in this rules release, but the core shape of the game is still the same. These changes are the details that are changing around the edges. We've had years of rules built on top of rules and some of them didn't make sense or we had to force things to happen a certain way and complex interactions lead to contradictions which lead to more forcing, etc. This release is resetting the 'foundation' of the game so everything resolves under the same model (though it is different than before). There is going to be some dust setting as the house of Dragon Diceā„¢ settles into it's new foundation.

I am now capturing some questions like this and we will be adding a FAQ to the rule book.

I will be around quite a bit at GenCon and will be happy to discuss with anyone any rules questions they have. I want to hear everyones thoughts and concerns that anyone has both good and bad. We honestly believe that the changes do help stream line things and make the game more accessible to more people. Do we have it perfect? No. Do plan to keep improving and clarifying things? YES!

We really do appreciate the questions and things will only get better with questions.
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chrisbogert
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:16 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Turn Sequence: Cliff, Chris

************************************************************************
Cliff
BUA
Cliff
DUA
Cliff
Reserve Army
Cliff
Summoning Pool
*
Cliff
Cliff

restless dead: +4 maneuver until beg of next turn
open grave: army effecting damaged units go do reserve
Cliff
Home Army
Chris's Home
Frontier
Cliff's Home
Chris
Home Army
Chris
Chris
*
Chris
Reserve Army
Chris
Summoning Pool
Chris
DUA
Chris
BUA

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