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Majiken
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 9:44 pm GMT    Post subject: More Dragon stuff... Reply with quote

Okay, this came up in our group games tonight (look for the recap to be posted in Themed sometime tomorrow), and it caused a long discussion which really lengthened the game.

Stan threw two blue wyrms on James. One rolled claws, the other breath. (It seems Stan is becoming rather adept at rolling breath with his dragons now). Rules state that the affected army may only roll for saves or save avoidance rolls as a result.

Question: When the army rolls, are the melee icons counted as hits on the dragons? In other words, does the breath effect alter the normal dragon attack sequence as well, or does the breath effect take place AFTER the attack is resolved?

Thanks!
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 10:25 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Read the dragon section carefully. Breath is considered a SAI, so it happens first. You lose any health killed by the breath before you roll your army against the dragon. So against blue dragon breath, you cannot kill the dragon unless you roll enough SAI melee or missile to kill one. All normal melee and missile are negated.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 4:29 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuckpint wrote:
Read the dragon section carefully. Breath is considered a SAI, so it happens first. You lose any health killed by the breath before you roll your army against the dragon. So against blue dragon breath, you cannot kill the dragon unless you roll enough SAI melee or missile to kill one. All normal melee and missile are negated.


Okay, a trout-slap to the head for me for not stating my question clearly enough. Embarassed

We understood that the breath effect happens first (but after any spells expire, like the Stoneskins James had cast on that army previous turn), and five health were rolled for saves (I think 2h actually survived). The discussion came from whether or not he got to use his save roll as his attack as well, like normal.

And now, having reread Chuck's reply, I see my original question answered, but it's too darn early to hit backspace and delete everything. So, okay. I can go back with to them with this. Since James was playing Canadian (with all his Feral bunched at Home), the 2 Smites and 1 Counter he rolled would have killed one of the Dragons. Gotcha. Normal missile and melee doesn't occurr. Got it!

Thanks as usual, Chuck! Very Happy



Oh, James did pull the win on this game, from good planning on his part and sheer stupidity on mine! Crying or Very sad I'll post the summary later.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 11:11 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, Chuck's reply confuses me. Just for reference, lets quote the Blue Dragon Breath's effect:

"Five health-worth of units in the target army must save individually or be killed. Until the beginning of the target army's next turn, the only rolls the target army can make are save and save avoidance rolls."

That says nothing about negating normal melee and missle results. I would rule that the Breath's wording changes the army's roll from a combination roll to a save roll.

Based on that, I would say that when the target army makes it's save roll against the dragon, the only way the dragon could be killed is if the army rolled enough SAIs that count as both saves and melee/missile results. Those SAIs would be: Counter, Volley, Shadow (if the Amazon Nightmare is ever released), and Sortie. Trample might count during this roll since Trample states that it generates melee results during any roll.

Does that make sense to anyone else?

(Note to Chuck: Before you post a reply telling me that SAIs cannot be modified by Dragon Breath and therefore they could be used to kill the dragon, reread what I wrote above. Before the army has a chance to roll, the Dragon Breath forces the army to make a save only roll; it is no longer a combination roll. Therefore, SAIs, like Smite, could not be used to kill the dragon because Smites don't count during a save roll.)

-Brad
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 11:45 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

piMaster wrote:


Does that make sense to anyone else?

-Brad


That makes perfect sense to me and I would have stated it the same way! Since the dragon's breath happens first, the five healthworth units roll for saves and afterwards the whole army affected by both dragon attacks rolls for saves also (due to dragon breath effect). That's definitely no combination roll anymore, there-fore only the SAI's mentioned in your post might have the chance to kill the Dragon(s)! And they might even come to effect in the first save roll of the five-healthworth units (unfortunately five-healthworth units can't roll enough SAI's to kill the first Dragon and their damage is expired when the whole army makes the second roll!)
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 12:34 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's an even bigger technicality, that I'm sure some rules lawyer might try to pull: Since the roll made in a dragon attack is a combination roll, not a save or save avoidance roll, you can't make any rolls against a dragon! Unless I missed something (which is entirely possible, since I haven't had time to really study the rules hard), the rules don't explicitly state that a combination roll can be changed into another kind of roll. Therefore, since a dragon roll is NOT a save or a save avoidance roll, but a COMBINATION roll, you can't roll anything against blue dragon breath.

(No, I'm not a rules lawyer, and were I judging an event I'd allow the roll for saves only, but I've judged enough tournaments for another game that I've seen crazier things claimed.)
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 1:27 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

DDiceRC wrote:
....Therefore, since a dragon roll is NOT a save or a save avoidance roll, but a COMBINATION roll, you can't roll anything against blue dragon breath.....


Hmmmmmm......
You really make me think!
You mean, since you have to make a combination roll when being attacked by a dragon but you can't due to the Dragon Breath (which only allows save rolls and save avoidance rolls afterwards), that you can't roll the combination roll at all?
Since you must roll a combination roll you can't just simply replace it by a save roll!?
That somehow makes sense!
That would leave you with two Dragons' attacks with no chance for saving (except for the five-healthworth units at first!) or killing them!
OUCH!
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 3:04 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, that's what I get when I try and answer a question when I'm off at a science fiction convention, with no sleep. Brad is mostly right. While the rules do not change the dragon combination roll into a save only roll, the effect is nearly the same. So after a blue dragon breath, the army can only be rolled for a save roll. This has several interesting effects.

For the dragon attack itself, it's nearly impossible to kill the dragon. Nearly, because there is one way. Any SAI that generates a save effect and a missile or melee effect, generates it's full effects. Therefore a Counter since it generates a save and melee, cannot be modified. So it generates saves and melee. If enough Counter were rolled, a dragon could be killed. However, other purely melee or missile SAIs would have no effect. For example a Smite would do nothing.

This would also be true if an army under the effects of blue dragon breath was attacked with missile or melee. Both the Volley and Counter would have their respective effects on the attacking army. However, in the case of a melee attack, no counter-attack would be possible.

Even worse would be some avoidance rolls. For example, a Volcanic Eruption would let that army rolls for saves, but not for the maneuver to stop the terrain from turning down. An unopposed army could maneuver a terrain up for example, but it a Wall of Thorns had been cast on it, since it could not roll the melee avoidance roll, it would be wiped out.

Perhaps Brad has the right idea, and we say that blue breath causes the dragon attack counter-roll to become a save-only avoidance roll, instead of a save/missile/melee avoidance roll. However, that has a few other side effects. For example, if that army was also under an Ash Storm spell, under the current rules you could still subtract the Ash Storm penalty from your melee results. The your melee results don't count. Don't know if that's worth the confusion....
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 3:44 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ Chuck:

The interesting question is:
Am I allowed to make a save roll with my army after the Dragon Breath has been resolved (to resolve the second Dragon's attack)???
Rules say that I have to make a combination roll but since breath is in effect, I can't! That fore I can't resolve the second Dragon's attack at all, suffering all the damage!?

It's a question of "which rule supersedes which rule"?
It's basic rule against basic rule! ("roll combi" against "resolve breath first")

See what I mean??

If I want to act the way you described above, then the rules should say "Until the beginning of the target army's next turn, the only rolls the target army can make are combination, save and save avoidance rolls. In combination rolls, however, only save icons are counted and save/damage combi-SAI's are not affected"
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 4:53 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no second dragon attack. Not at the same terrain anyway. If multiple of your armies have dragons at their terrain, you get to decide which army is attacked first, second, etc.

If multiple dragons are at a terrain, one of two things happen:

If all dragons are the same color, then they all attack together. Breaths are resolved first. Note that multiple black or blue breaths are not cumulative beyond the number of health (possibly) killed. Gold and green breaths are cumulative, the first halves, the second quarters, etc. Then any Treasures that are rolled are dealt with. Then all the combined damage is dealt with. In the case of a blue breath, the army only gets to count all saves, or SAIs that generate saves.

If the dragons are not the same color, then the dragons fight each other. The army at the terrain is completely ignored. Any breaths have the effect of removing the 5 automatic saves from another dragon until the end of the current player's next turn. The player that owns that dragon decides which other dragon to target.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 5:06 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuckpint wrote:
There is no second dragon attack......

I meant the attack of the second Dragon (Claws) at the terrain mentioned in the very first post of this thread which happens at the same time like the Dragon Breath but is resolved after the breath.

...... In the case of a blue breath, the army only gets to count all saves, or SAIs that generate saves.......

Also in the combination roll, OK! Got it! It's just not really clear in the rules, I find.


The rest I knew, thanx, Chuck! Very Happy
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:30 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Perhaps Brad has the right idea, and we say that blue breath causes the dragon attack counter-roll to become a save-only avoidance roll, instead of a save/missile/melee avoidance roll. However, that has a few other side effects. For example, if that army was also under an Ash Storm spell, under the current rules you could still subtract the Ash Storm penalty from your melee results. The your melee results don't count. Don't know if that's worth the confusion....


I don't see how that's a problem. If it became a save-only avoidance roll, then Ash Storm would only subtract from the save results (per the spell description). Remember, its not a combination roll anymore.

-Brad
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 11:05 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

piMaster wrote:
I don't see how that's a problem. If it became a save-only avoidance roll, then Ash Storm would only subtract from the save results (per the spell description). Remember, its not a combination roll anymore.


That is the problem. It still is a combination roll. Changing the rules to make it into a save only roll, would make the effects of blue dragon breath that much worse. So as the rules read right now, it is a combination save/melee/missile avoidance roll, but no melee or missile results count.

Confusing? Yes. But consider this. Currently an army under the effects of a blue dragon breath can perform any maneuver or action it wants. It simply cannot roll for anything other than saves. So as stated in the rules, that army can still change the terrain facing or bring in a minor terrain. All that has to happen is for it to be unopposed, or all other armies at the terrain to get zero maneuvers (don't laugh I saw it happen once). Of course, if the army had a Wind Walk (or more), it would have those maneuvers no matter what.

Also note that while rolling for saves, other results can count. Any race that gets maneuvers for saves can count it's maneuvers as saves.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 8:19 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuckpint wrote:
Also note that while rolling for saves, other results can count. Any race that gets maneuvers for saves can count it's maneuvers as saves.

So is every roll really a combination roll, but only certain results count then? For example, if I am rolling for Saves under the effects of a single Ash Storm, can I subtract 1 result from my melee or magic instead of saves? And if I can only subtract results from my saves, then if my maneuvers count as saves are my maneuver results safe from the Ash Storm before being converted into saves (since you subtract before applying racial abilities)? If I can instead subtract from any icons during any roll, can I then subtract from my maneuvers or magic when rolling against a dragon under the effects of an Ash Storm spell?


Thanks in advance!

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 9:13 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, we were talking about the case of a dragon attack. That is a combination avoidance roll of save/melee/missile. Let me give you an example. An army is attacked by an army from another terrain with missile. The other army gets 10 missile results (after counting the Wall of Fog). Your terrain is a Coastland with an Ash Storm and a Wall of Fog cast on it. Your army consists of half Coral Elves, and half Scalders. There are a total of 5 Scalder units. Your army has had a Transmute Rock to Mud (TRtM) cast on it, a Palsy, a Wild Walk, and a Wall of Ice.

So you roll the army and get the following results: Coral Elf units get 2 health of IDs, 3 maneuver, 2 melee, 3 missile, 2 magic, and no saves. The Scalders get 1 health of IDs, 5 maneuver, 6 melee, 2 saves, 1 magic and no missile. Ok, now we start applying spells. First we subtract. The TRtM subtracts from maneuver results, so you could subtract from the 5 Scalder maneuver, and then 1 more from the Coral Elf maneuver. So zero Scalder maneuver, 2 Coral Elf maneuver. Then we have the Palsy and Ash Storm. Since they subtract from results and we are rolling for saves, then they must be subtracted from save results. That means that only results that can be resolved as saves can be subtracted from. You cannot subtract from magic results, because they do not resolve into saves for this roll. So you can subtract from IDs, save results, or Coral Elf maneuvers. Those are the only things that resolve into save results. Since the Coral Elf maneuvers would be halved in the next step by the Wall of Fog, our player chooses to subtract both penalties from the Coral Elf maneuvers. So now we have zero Coral Elf maneuvers. Now we look for penalties that divide. The only one is Wall of Fog. Since the Coral Elf maneuvers are zero, it has no effect. We don't have anything that would multiply, so we skip that. Next we apply racial abilities. Since the Coral Elf maneuvers are zero, there are none to convert to saves. However, we get 5 saves from the Scalder Intangibility. Then we go to add, and we add 3 saves due to the Wall of Ice. So our results are: 3 IDs, 10 save (2 Scalder saves + Wall of Ice + 5 Scalder Intangibility) for a total of 13 saves. So we take no damage. Note that the Wind Walk did not do anything since it adds after the Racial Ability step.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:57 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just figured out what the real problems with Blue Dragon Breath (BDB) are.

Problem One: BDB says you can only make save rolls and save avoidance rolls. A combination roll is not a save or save avoidance roll. Therefore, you should not roll during a combination roll.

Solution: Modify BDB so that an army can roll during a save roll, save avoidance roll, and a combination roll in which saves are one of the components.

However, that solution leads us to the next problem.

Problem Two: All BDB does is prevent an army from rolling under certain circumstances. Once an army is allowed to roll, BDB has no further effect on that army. BDB has no effect on the results generated by an army allowed to roll. Therefore, if an army is allowed to roll during a combination roll, then the combination roll would proceed normally as if BDB wasn't there.

Solution: EITHER have BDB negate results OR change the rules of combination rolls so that if a certain type of roll is forbidden, then the combination roll is transformed so that the forbidden type is no longer part of the combination roll.

I believe that transforming combination rolls would be the easiest solution if you want BDB to work like Chuck indicated above.

-Brad
ps: credit for finding problem one actually goes to DDiceRC.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:07 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
ps: credit for finding problem one actually goes to DDiceRC.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:00 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Problem one is not a problem. You are reading far too much into that. A combination roll is all of it's parts. If you take your reasoning to it's logic conclusion, then many SAIs don't work during a combination roll, because they only work during melee, save, or whatever. I guess the only easy way to resolve problem two, is stick to the exact working of blue dragon breath. That means, that if an army is faced with a combination roll, only the save part of the roll is allowed.


This causes no real problems, but it does change some old rulings. If right after the dragon attack, there is damage besides just the breath, then the army must be rolled for a save roll. (note: it's no longer an avoidance roll, you are only saving for damage.) Any penalties like Ash Storm, can only come from the save results, because those are the results you are rolling for. But note carefully, that it is not negating any results. So Coral Elves at a Coastland, can still count any maneuvers as saves. Any SAIs that have effects during a save roll, operate normally. It also means that in order to attempt a maneuver, the army must be unopposed. Note that unopposed does not mean only no other armies at the terrain. It also can be unopposed if no other armies at the terrain oppose your maneuver attempt. Of course, they are taking a chance, since you don't have to say whether you are going to turn the terrain up or down. Since the army can't roll a maneuver attempt, it can't force other armies to roll a counter maneuver and hope for zero counter maneuvers. Wind Walk would not help this army either since it can only add to a roll.

So a army under the effects of blue dragon breath has the following happen:
  1. If the dragon attack causes army damage, then the army rolls a normal save roll, not a dragon combination save/melee/missile avoidance roll.
  2. If the dragon attack caused no damage, then the army cannot roll at all.
  3. The army can maneuver, but if opposed in any way, it is stopped.
  4. The army cannot counter-maneuver.
  5. The army cannot take any action (melee, missile or magic).
  6. The army cannot counter-attack.
  7. Any effect that causes normal damage to the army, lets the army make a normal save roll.
  8. Any effect that causes the army to make a roll other than, but not including saves, the army is unable to roll, so it takes full effect.
  9. Any effect that causes the army to make a roll for saves and something else, the roll is changed to a save roll only, the army takes the full effect of the part it could not roll for. (for example Tidal Wave automatically turns the terrain down one step.)

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 3:17 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuckpint wrote:
This causes no real problems, but it does change some old rulings. If right after the dragon attack, there is damage besides just the breath, then the army must be rolled for a save roll. (note: it's no longer an avoidance roll, you are only saving for damage.) Any penalties like Ash Storm, can only come from the save results, because those are the results you are rolling for. But note carefully, that it is not negating any results. So Coral Elves at a Coastland, can still count any maneuvers as saves. Any SAIs that have effects during a save roll, operate normally. It also means that in order to attempt a maneuver, the army must be unopposed. Note that unopposed does not mean only no other armies at the terrain. It also can be unopposed if no other armies at the terrain oppose your maneuver attempt. Of course, they are taking a chance, since you don't have to say whether you are going to turn the terrain up or down. Since the army can't roll a maneuver attempt, it can't force other armies to roll a counter maneuver and hope for zero counter maneuvers. Wind Walk would not help this army either since it can only add to a roll.

So a army under the effects of blue dragon breath has the following happen:
  1. If the dragon attack causes army damage, then the army rolls a normal save roll, not a dragon combination save/melee/missile avoidance roll.
  2. If the dragon attack caused no damage, then the army cannot roll at all.
  3. The army can maneuver, but if opposed in any way, it is stopped.
  4. The army cannot counter-maneuver.
  5. The army cannot take any action (melee, missile or magic).
  6. The army cannot counter-attack.
  7. Any effect that causes normal damage to the army, lets the army make a normal save roll.
  8. Any effect that causes the army to make a roll other than, but not including saves, the army is unable to roll, so it takes full effect.
  9. Any effect that causes the army to make a roll for saves and something else, the roll is changed to a save roll only, the army takes the full effect of the part it could not roll for. (for example Tidal Wave automatically turns the terrain down one step.)

I think this interpretation is consistent with the past rulings as well as the intent (at least as it's been discussed over the past few years) of Blue Dragon breath. The short version of the intent has been "you get to roll to save against damage but not for any other reason". This is one of the ones where we debated how to word it when the rules were cleaned up. I don't think anything needs to be changed in the rules, although some people may need to change how they think about the effects.
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Deeghter
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Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 2553
Location: Lost

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:24 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just need a short confirmation that a dragon at a terrain can really be summoned away by the opponent and sent to another or even the same terrain??
I know I read it somewhere but I can't find it again.
Or is it for Champion units only (DL, DM,)?? I think I read it in connection with tamed dragons?
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SFR's German electro-punk-bluegrass artist Deeghter @@ My S&JW Memorial Space! Tanx, Steve!
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