SFR, Inc. Forum Index SFR, Inc.
Forums that relate to SFR products
 
 Watched TopicsWatched Topics   FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

How should spells be indexed and ordered in the rules?

 
This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    SFR, Inc. Forum Index -> 3.01 and later Rules Discussion - Locked
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
chuckpint
White Dragon
SFR President
Site Admin



Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 9169
Location: Evanston, IL

usa.gif
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:00 am GMT    Post subject: How should spells be indexed and ordered in the rules? Reply with quote

Currently the rules list the spells by color, and ordered by spell cost. While there are many different ways they could be indexed, the question really is what way makes it easiest to find spells?
_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Diceā„¢ sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Diceā„¢, 20,000 Daemon Diceā„¢, and others (too many to count).
Back to top
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
cliffwiggs
SFR Treasurer
Chief Wheedler
SDA - Rules NitPicker



Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 10794
Location: Cumming, GA - USA

usa.gif
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:12 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

The goal is to find 'what can I cast' in the quickest manner.

So there are two dimensions to that: cost and color/racial.

See how I had to use a /? That's because we really have a 3rd dimension hidden in there with the values of Racial vs Elemental(i.e. non-racial).

So looking at it mathematically, we can do:

Color/Cost/Racial (what we are doing today)

Color/Racial/Cost

Racial/Color/Cost - This is close what the racial sheets are doing and my current preference.

Racial/Cost/Color

Cost/Racial/Color

Cost/Color/Racial - Personally I dislike this as I have to skip over spells I can't cast, my main issue with what we have today.
_________________
Multiplayer Champion Gencon11/Battlefest Champion(tied) GenCon10/World Champion GenCon07/National Champion Origins05/Intermediate Champion GenCon02/Novice Champion Origins99
Back to top
 View user's profile Send private message
loligarchy
common
Stockholder



Joined: 01 Oct 2012
Posts: 251
Location: Chapel Hill, NC

usa.gif
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:36 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just my 2 copper: One of the biggest issues I get with new players casting spells is that they look at the spell list, find a spell in the color and cost that they want to cast and then have to be notified that they currently are unable to cast that spell due to racial requirements.

Thus, my personal preference and something that would make it easier on newer players would be to somehow sequester the racial spells into their own category away from the basic spells entirely. Whether the basic spells section were to come before or after the racial spells doesn't matter as much and whether you would replicate the basic spells within those racial spell lists or not would be nice but take up a lot of additional space, which can be unnecessarily difficult.
_________________
Current Dice Collection: 5989 Dragon Diceā„¢
Back to top
 View user's profile Send private message
chuckpint
White Dragon
SFR President
Site Admin



Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 9169
Location: Evanston, IL

usa.gif
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:33 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, just working with that idea: Separate the spells by color, and then break that into two subsections: Basic, and Racial. Each subsection would still be ordered by cost. Does that make it easier?

Another alternative of the above: order the Basic by cost, order the Racial by race.
_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Diceā„¢ sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Diceā„¢, 20,000 Daemon Diceā„¢, and others (too many to count).
Back to top
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
DialFforFunky
rare



Joined: 11 May 2010
Posts: 1992
Location: Groningen

netherlands.gif
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:46 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great to see that you are making this a topic of discussion! Its been one of those tiny things that I'd love to see polished a bit. Here is my preference:

colour
- basic, sorted by cost
- racial, races sorted alphabetically, spells sorted by cost.

Example wrote:
Green Spells
Basic:
2 - Watery double
5 - Flash flood
6 - Wall of fog

Racial:
6 - Deluge ---------- Coral Elf
6 - Tidal wave ------ Scalder
6 - Mire ------------- Swamp Stalker
8 - Wall of thorns -- Treefolk


another one:
Example 2 wrote:
Black spells:
Basic:
3 - Palsy
4x - Finger of Death
6 - Soiled Ground

Racial:
3 - Magic Drain --------- Frostwing
2 - Decay --------------- Goblin
4 - Necromantic Wave - Lava Elf
3 - Swamp Fever ------- Swamp Stalker
2 - Evil Eye ------------- Undead
4 - Restless Dead ------ Undead
6 - Exhume ------------- Undead
6 - Open Grave -------- Undead


F
_________________
717


Last edited by DialFforFunky on Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:28 am GMT; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
 View user's profile Send private message
bluewizard
uncommon
Stockholder



Joined: 16 Jul 2013
Posts: 635
Location: Chantilly, VA

usa.gif
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:34 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

This boils down to a preference question. We all will consume the data slight differently.

I tend to like what we are doing today actually as Color/Cost. The Racial is there as extra info within cost and then spells would be ABC'd within the cost.

Now to answer the real question is how can a player quickly find the information they want.

A quick supplemental sheet for each Race that contains Spells/SAIs does just that. They bring 1 or 2 sheets that has what they need at the moment to play the game. It would not have information that isn't needed.

A separate game page would contain steps, Terrains, Dragons or other things that people actually use. 1-2 pages and your dice and you can play once you know the basics. The reference sheets are super key in my opinion.

Yea I digressed a little at the end but believe it answers the question of what we should be trying to solve.
Back to top
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
shepdog69
common
Stockholder



Joined: 12 Jul 2016
Posts: 181
Location: Columbus

usa.gif
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:39 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

My preference would be three sections:
1. spells by color, in order of cost, minus racial spells
2. Elemental spells, except Amazon and Eldarim. A note about all points used to cast a spell being one color would be helpful reminder here
3. Racial spells, by race, by cost,

Even though many times I use race sheets, when I'm up against a new player who doesn't have them, I still have a printed book they can reference. I was often confused in the beginning when I wanted to cast a spell these turned out to be racial. I think it's easiest to have them separate, where they can be referenced by those playing such in such race.

BTW, I sort my spell cards the same way.
_________________
Duct tape is like the Force: it has a light side and a dark side, and it holds the universe together Razz
Back to top
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
virtualflesh
dragonsteed



Joined: 07 Sep 2015
Posts: 98
Location: Colorado

usa.gif
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:49 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

My vote:
- Basic spells group first, order by Color, Cost, Name
- Racial spells group second, order by Race, Cost, Name, Color

There are so few spells per race, its order appears to ease only Undead.
Back to top
 View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
loligarchy
common
Stockholder



Joined: 01 Oct 2012
Posts: 251
Location: Chapel Hill, NC

usa.gif
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:18 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

bluewizard wrote:
This boils down to a preference question. We all will consume the data slight differently.


One could also consider it a question of the dominance of public opinion, or look at data on how to appeal to typical learning styles or even how most individuals tend to effectively absorb reference material.

chuckpint wrote:
OK, just working with that idea: Separate the spells by color, and then break that into two subsections: Basic, and Racial. Each subsection would still be ordered by cost. Does that make it easier?

Another alternative of the above: order the Basic by cost, order the Racial by race.


I would prefer the former of the two you mentioned. What DialFforFunky proposed would also be acceptable.

I'll throw together a document with the spells organized in a few different ways and get some opinions regarding preference among the group members, then report back when I get the chance.
_________________
Current Dice Collection: 5989 Dragon Diceā„¢
Back to top
 View user's profile Send private message
chuckpint
White Dragon
SFR President
Site Admin



Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 9169
Location: Evanston, IL

usa.gif
PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:37 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

New version of the rules is posted. Spell organization has NOT changed. This is due to conflicting requirements, and no clear direction that I can see. This can still be revisited, I just wanted to get these cleaned up rules out today.
_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Diceā„¢ sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Diceā„¢, 20,000 Daemon Diceā„¢, and others (too many to count).
Back to top
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Dolus
rare



Joined: 07 Sep 2011
Posts: 1305
Location: San Diego, CA

usa.gif
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:54 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cliff posted the 6 possible ways to sort spells by. Color, Race, and Cost are the possible sort parameters.

First, there are 3 obviously bad sort options.
Cost-Race-Color and Cost-Color-Race are both awful because you're basically looking at every single spell struggling to figure out what you can cast.
Race-Cost-Color isn't as bad, but it's pretty close. Basic spells are still a pain to look through.

So we really only have 3 options that are worth considering.
Color-Cost-Race is what we correctly do. This makes me have to filter out the other races as I'm looking at it, but it mostly works. I think it could be improved, however.

Either of the other two options I think will be a significant improvement. I think we should produce an example of each and share it so people can look at both and say which they like better.
Race-Color-Cost is what I was advocating for, because I think it's easier to see the spells I can cast that way.
Color-Race-Cost is I think the way I'm leaning now, after having looked at both as an example. It technically gives 4 locations to look for spells for single race armies, but it's mostly 2 places and you don't really need to struggle to see which racial spells you can cast and which you can't.


Essentially, we should remove from view spells a person can't cast for them. Grouping together only the spells they can cast does this. Grouping spells they can't cast with the ones they can means players will be wasting time reading spells they can't cast.
_________________
Collection
Back to top
 View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    SFR, Inc. Forum Index -> 3.01 and later Rules Discussion - Locked All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group