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Dispel Magic - or - The Curse of the Owl-folk?
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Majiken
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 9:01 pm GMT    Post subject: Dispel Magic - or - The Curse of the Owl-folk? Reply with quote

Okay, so Owl-folk aren't the only ones with Dispel, but at the tourney last night they were annoying in the worst way. Especially since Jag refuses to listen to any argument that might weaken their SAI. Ready for this one?

I summoned three gold dragons to Jag's terrain, where he has 2 Owl-folk. He rolls both dice three times (total of six), and manages to dispel 2 of the 3 dragons. I argue, of course. One roll for all spells targeting the unit(s), or terrain, not one roll for each spell.

It got heated quickly, with him refusing to bend at all. I finally let him have his way to get the game going, even more determined at that point to pound the stuffing out of his army.

Same game, next incident. I roll magic and attempt to Explode Stone one of his magic items. He rolls Dispel and blocks it. I argue, of course. Read the rules, numbnuts! Any spell targeting this unit(s), or the terrain this unit occupies. An item is an item, not a unit.

I let it go before it got too out of hand, since it was like arguing with a mule anyway. In fact, I think I did call him a jackass at some point....

Now for the last bit, and this I didn't have an answer to. Can you use more magic to Explode Stone larger magic items? The way it reads, you can't. Only 1h items can get 'sploded (as my youngest boy would say).

Chuck? Brad? Cliff? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

By the way, I did end up winning by attrition, and I was never more happy to kill off those Feral.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 10:36 pm GMT    Post subject: Re: Dispel Magic - or - The Curse of the Owl-folk? Reply with quote

Majiken wrote:
I summoned three gold dragons to Jag's terrain, where he has 2 Owl-folk. He rolls both dice three times (total of six), and manages to dispel 2 of the 3 dragons. I argue, of course. One roll for all spells targeting the unit(s), or terrain, not one roll for each spell.
Only two rolls (one from each Owl) would be made. The key wording is "Only one dispel attempt is made per unit". If either one rolls the Dispel, then none of the dragons would be summoned. Key wording on that one is "immediately negate all unresolved magic that applies to the target(s)."

Majiken wrote:
Same game, next incident. I roll magic and attempt to Explode Stone one of his magic items. He rolls Dispel and blocks it. I argue, of course. Read the rules, numbnuts! Any spell targeting this unit(s), or the terrain this unit occupies. An item is an item, not a unit.
Correct again. The spell targets the magic item, not the unit with the dispel, the army or the terrain. Therefore the Owl does not get a chance to roll to dispel magic. Note: If this had occurred during the same magic action as the summoning dragons discussed above, the Explode Stone would be dispelled if the Owl rolled dispel magic while rolling to dispel the summon dragon spell(s) that targeted the terrain even though they don't get a roll because of the Explode Stone.

Majiken wrote:
Now for the last bit, and this I didn't have an answer to. Can you use more magic to Explode Stone larger magic items? The way it reads, you can't. Only 1h items can get 'sploded (as my youngest boy would say).
You're on a roll; once again you are correct. The wording in the spell says that multiple casting target multiple magical items. If it was able to affect larger items the wording would have been something along the lines of ".... or allow larger items to be targeted."
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 7:09 am GMT    Post subject: Re: Dispel Magic - or - The Curse of the Owl-folk? Reply with quote

koslowj wrote:
Note: If this had occurred during the same magic action as the summoning dragons discussed above, the Explode Stone would be dispelled if the Owl rolled dispel magic while rolling to dispel the summon dragon spell(s) that targeted the terrain even though they don't get a roll because of the Explode Stone.

Sorry to tell you John, but you are remembering the old rule. The newest rule only dispels the targets that trigger the Dispel. Here's the rule:
Quote:
Whenever any magic targets this unit, the army containing this unit and/or the terrain this unit occupies, you may roll this unit after all spells are announced but before any are resolved. If the Dispel Magic icon comes up, immediately negate all unresolved magic that applies to the target(s). Only one dispel attempt is made per unit and, if it fails, then all the spell(s) are resolved normally.

Note the phase "...negate all unresolved magic that applies to the target(s)." The words here were chosen carefully. First, a Dispel never dispels magic that is in existence before the roll. So if a magic action puts a Palsy on the army and the Dispel fails, and a second magic action puts another Palsy on the army and Dispel succeeds, then the first Palsy is still in effect, and the second one fails. Second, you can only dispel magic that targets the unit, the army the unit is in, and the terrain the unit is at. If you have two monsters in your army, a Owl-folk and a Lion-folk, and both are targeted with Lightning Strike, if the Owl-folk rolls Dispel, the Lion-folk is still hit, and has to roll a save.

Believe it or not, this actually makes the effect simpler that the older versions. Under one old version, in was possible to dispel magic that was targeted at another army. One version negated all magic cast by the army taking the magic action! This simply says the trigger targets and the dispel targets are one and the same.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 9:01 am GMT    Post subject: Re: Dispel Magic - or - The Curse of the Owl-folk? Reply with quote

chuckpint wrote:
koslowj wrote:
Note: If this had occurred during the same magic action as the summoning dragons discussed above, the Explode Stone would be dispelled if the Owl rolled dispel magic while rolling to dispel the summon dragon spell(s) that targeted the terrain even though they don't get a roll because of the Explode Stone.

Sorry to tell you John, but you are remembering the old rule. The newest rule only dispels the targets that trigger the Dispel.
Oops, that's what I get for answering posts when I really should be asleep. I forgot about that change.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 9:20 am GMT    Post subject: Re: Dispel Magic - or - The Curse of the Owl-folk? Reply with quote

Quote:
You're on a roll; once again you are correct.


We've alerted the media.

Quote:
The wording in the spell says that multiple casting target multiple magical items. If it was able to affect larger items the wording would have been something along the lines of ".... or allow larger items to be targeted."


Okay, not trying to start a row here, but... how come? Why not, etc..? Most spells along that line have some kind of increased effect for more magic spent. So why not Explode Stone?

Just curious, guys. Laughing
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 9:22 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Most spells along that line have some kind of increased effect for more magic spent. So why not Explode Stone?


Maybe because no one uses anything but common items anyway? Wink

More likely because it came out as part of the "eliminate the nasty all-common army" strategy, though.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:58 am GMT    Post subject: Re: Dispel Magic - or - The Curse of the Owl-folk? Reply with quote

Majiken wrote:
Okay, not trying to start a row here, but... how come? Why not, etc..? Most spells along that line have some kind of increased effect for more magic spent. So why not Explode Stone?
I don't remember all of the debate on this one (actually I'm not even sure I was in on the debate) but I think the reasoning was an attempt to balance out the fact that common magic items tend to give better results (point-for-point) than the larger magic items. As a result, you rarely see uncommon or rare magic items in play. By limiting the spell to common magic items, you create an advantage for the uncommon and rare magic items that didn't exist before. And the spell does have an increased effect for more magic spent: you get to target multiple magic items.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 8:09 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

John you were part of the debate, but only a small part. But your remembrance of the reasoning is correct.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 1:49 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, more dumbness - mine. It's easy for me to understand magic. You cast a spell it comes in, you don't see it, smell it or hear it. But the effect is noticed. When you summon a dragon you use magic to summon the dragon, but there is no magic targeting a unit, terrain, Joe, me or anyone else. It just releases the Dragon to Fly to a terrain and a Dragon is not a magic spell. It's a thing! I just can not quit grasp why a dispel magic would have an effect on the dragon. Once the Dragon is released the magic is resolved - IMHO.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 1:59 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well Joe I will just bring a bunch of Owl Folk and roll once for every unit in your army. How do you spell D-I-S-P-E-L-L Mr. Green
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 2:04 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can look at "dispel" in this way:

The magician casting a spell has to concentrate on focussing the natural astral forces for his use. This will change the structure of the astral power lines surrounding Esfah (Mana is consistingly existant as a sort of "web" waving through nature). Nobody can notice but units with Dispel. They have kinda 7th sense for changes in the astral structure. As soon as they notice a change they try to re-do it. Unfortunately they can only feel it when they (or their army, terrain) are targeted.
Now, if you summon a dragon the same thing happens. And Dispel disturbs the magicians "summoning call" before it reaches (and really summons) the dragon.

(this is how I look at it)

Note: Dispel negates magic after the spells have announced but before they are resolved! (which means there has been a change in mana structure but the powers weren't released yet and Dispel prevents that from happening)
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 9:29 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Firewalker wrote:
It just releases the Dragon to Fly to a terrain and a Dragon is not a magic spell. It's a thing! I just can not quit grasp why a dispel magic would have an effect on the dragon. Once the Dragon is released the magic is resolved - IMHO.

Stanley
One thing that might help (from both a wording perspective and a story line perspective) is looking at what the target of the spell is. You are targeting the terrain, not the dragon. You're basically making that particular terrain so appealing to the Dragon that they can't resist showing up rather than releasing the Dragon from someone else so that they can fly to the terrrain. So dispelling the magic at the terrain doesn't do anything to the Dragon itself but prevents the creation of the overwhelming desirablility of the terrain that the magic user was attempting to create and the dragon doesn't bother stopping by for lunch.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 10:05 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep! That's an even nicer explanation and much closer to the rules than mine! Razz Razz
(just couldn't think of an explanation for targeting terrain).

NICE ONE!! Razz Razz
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 2:47 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks folks. Now it makes sense. Not so much opening the gates of Dragonville, as placing icing on the cake.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 1:32 pm GMT    Post subject: Magic 101 Reply with quote

Just to follow Deeghter's example, here's my own take of how magic works on Esfah.

Magic is everywhere. All around, in every terrain, every wisp of wind, every rock and drop of water. However, it is concentrated more in some areas than others. Hmm... sounds like the Force. Laughing

While every intelligent creature of Esfah can sense magic, only a few can actually harness the raw power, giving us the magic-users of the world. As written in Chill Wind, they can "see" magic as motes of enegy. A single mote of energy by itself isn't much, but seven of them could summon a dragon. Example: An evoker or theurgist can, at best, see 2 motes at any time, since they lack the experience or training to draw more. Thus a Wizard or Enchanter can see twice that (or 3X, in the case of the Inferno). During battle when there are many of a given race at a location, the magic-user draws on their elemental make-up to grab even more magic than normal, or, in game parlance, uses their IDs.

As far as summoning dragons goes, previously published information states that they are elemental creatures; not necessarily living ones, and not occupying the same plane of existance as the other inhabitants of Esfah. A dragon is summoned into being, taking shape as the spell is cast. They always seem to emerge angry, attacking indiscriminantly, so maybe getting pulled into another dimension hurts. I know a headache makes me grumpy, so imagine what being thrust into another world must feel like! They are, in one sense, the physical manifestation of magical energy. That is why the magic-user can summon them to a specific location. He directs the energy to the place he wants the dragon to appear. A unit with dispel senses the energy being channeled and disperses it if it can (rolling the right icon).

Just my take for your entertainment. Anyone else?

Cheers!

Laughing
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 5:31 am GMT    Post subject: I remember back in the day Reply with quote

I remember several years back when the ruling was that dispel didn't effect the summon dragon spell. the reason back then was that the spell didn't effect the terrain but the space above the terrain. The dragon normally doesn't land.

Just another example of how this game has grown and changed (I remember when you rolled all the terrains first, then moved your armies based on the results.)
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:25 am GMT    Post subject: Re: I remember back in the day Reply with quote

BBrauser wrote:
The dragon normally doesn't land.


They had forgotten about the Wyrms those days, huh?? Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:19 am GMT    Post subject: Wyrms Reply with quote

I've always considered the wyrms as still able to fly, just like Chinese dragons still weave through the sky by magic, they just don't have wings. For that matter I've always assumed the wyrms HAVE wings, the icons not having wings doesn't mean they don't own wings, the icons represent the fact that the wyrms won't fly away during a battle, they will stay till the battle is resolved.

in my opinion a dragon without wings isn't a dragon at all, but a dragon mount
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 5:27 am GMT    Post subject: Another Dispel Magic Question Reply with quote

Joe and I had coffee tonight and I posed this question. Dispel Magic rule reads in part "Whenever any magic targets this UNIT, the ARMY containing this unit and/or the TERRAIN this unit occupies....." If I use a spell such-as Hailstorm - target any army - an opponent can use Dispel Magic; Backlash - target any terrain - can use Dispel Magic. Finger of Death - target any enemy unit. Question - if the unit is NOT the unit with Dispel Magic on it, can Dispel Magic be used? I am not targeting the UNIT has Dispel Magic ("this unit" as above), I am not targeting the ARMY and I am not targeting the TERRAIN. I am targeting a totally different unit. Seems to me, based on the wording in the description of Dispel Magic, the opponent would not be able to roll his Dispel Magic unit. Joe says good point - how say you?
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 5:36 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are correct. See my previous post about the targets of the Dispel.
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