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Poison, Cantrip, a Phoenix and the DUA

 
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Autpost
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:13 am GMT    Post subject: Poison, Cantrip, a Phoenix and the DUA Reply with quote

The German translation is coming slowly to an end and several questions have come up. I will ask just to be sure that everything is correct. Here is a rather complex group of questions concerning the topic mentioned above:

[1] My opponent rolls for melee and a Poison comes up. He targets my Dwarven Wizard. The Wizard doesn't save during his first save roll and hence is killed (and moved into the DUA?). What happens if a Cantrip comes up during his second save roll? Normally everyone would expect that you can use the Cantrip, but the rules say different:
from page 26:
Quote:
Note that unless the SAI generates normal results you are looking for in an individual roll or specifically states it works in the DUA, no SAI works in the DUA.

(On top of page 20 there is an example for Poison & Cantrip, but it doesn't say if this is true for both avoidance rolls.)

[2] Although Cantrip isn't a save, I suppose Earthen Armor is able to save the dwarf, if he's allowed to cast it. (A Cantrip-based Earthen Armor saves against Lightning Strike, so it should work against Poison too.)

[3] Even worse is this question:
A Troll is the target of Poison. During his first save roll he fails and is killed. During his second save roll (to prevent burial) a Regenerate comes up. Since he is already dead now (and possibly lying in the DUA), may the Troll regenerate himself? (And if not, may he regenerate someone else?)

I would give this answer: It's not possible because:
1.) Either, if Poison kills a unit, it is not moved into the DUA before Poison has resolved completely. So the Troll cannot choose himself because he is not lying in the DUA (although he is already dead).
Or 2.) The Troll is in the DUA, but then Regenerate would not work.
No matter what's correct, he cannot regenerate himself.
Quote:
Poison SAI Resolution Type: Special
During a melee attack, choose up to four health-worth of units in the defending army to immediately generate a save individually or be killed. Any units that are killed must roll a save or be buried.

Regenerate SAI Resolution Type: Normal or Special
During any non-maneuver roll, this icon generates four save results or you may immediately bring back up to four health-worth of units from your DUA to the army containing this unit.


(Phoenix coming soon.)
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chuckpint
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:49 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

We added the rule that you quoted about SAIs and the DUA just to prevent those sort of problems.

Note: Poison is a two-step process. If a unit fails the first save, it's dead and in the DUA. But there is still Poison in the "body" that can destroy it. So the second save attempt is made, and if failed, the unit is buried. So Poison is an example of a SAI that has an effect in the DUA, i.e. the chance of being buried.

As for Cantrip working from a Unit in the DUA, there were too many examples that made that a big problem. For example, a unit rolls a Cantrip while in the DUA, and resurrects a common. Where would that common go? So we just decided on a simple rule, the one you quoted.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:50 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is the correct resolution if Poison and Rise from the Ashes come together and a Phoenix fails in every roll?
Somehow you can argue that nothing can tear a SAI in two parts to do something else in between because SAIs cannot be modified.
So first the Phoenix rolls to prevent himself from being killed, then he rolls to avoid burial. Then he will get his two Rise from the Ashes rolls (one because he is killed and another one because he is also buried; Or does he get just one roll?)

Or does it look like this: First he rolls to avoid being killed, then his first RftA roll, then he rolls to avoid burial, and then his last roll for RftA.
This could lead to a weird situation: The Phoenix fails in his first save roll and is killed. However he rolls RftA and goes to the reserve area. Does the Poison expire? If not, he still has to roll to avoid burial although he has raised to the reserve. The rules say that spells and effects expire if a creature goes to the DUA, so SAIs could expire too if a creature goes the way back.

(btw: The raw version of the translation is finished.)
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:59 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you think about it, it's fairly simple. Rise from the Ashes (RftA) is one of the few Conditional SAIs. Meaning that the unit is rolled to try and get that result only when a specified condition occurs. In this case it's condition is whenever the Phoenix is killed or buried. So the correct way this would have to happen is as follows:

  1. First see if the Phoenix makes the save vs Poison or is killed.
  2. If it saves, no effect, you're done.
  3. The Phoenix is killed, see if the Phoenix makes a RftA roll.
  4. If yes, the Phoenix is alive, and goes to Reserves, no further rolls are needed (see below as to why).
  5. If no, the Phoenix is really dead, see if it can save again vs Poison or be buried.
  6. If it makes the save, it's dead and stays in the DUA, you're done.
  7. If it fails the save roll, see if it makes a RftA roll.
  8. If it fails the RftA roll, it's buried, you're done.
  9. If it makes the RftA roll, it's alive and goes to Reserves, you're done.


My reasoning behind #4: Poison states that any unit that is killed must make a save or be buried. In this case, the unit is killed, but doesn't stay killed long enough to worry about being buried. Given the Phoenix, I'd simply say: "The Phoenix died, and then burst into flame. A new unpoisoned Phoenix rose from the tainted ashes of the old, and flew off to the Reserves." If you read thru the rules, you will never (hopefully) find any case where a unit was sent directly to the BUA. It all cases it is worded "killed and buried". Why? Because we wanted it to clearly be a two-step process, first it's killed, and then it's buried. All SAIs that can cause unit burial should read like that (with variations of course, in when it can save or not).
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 2:11 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

And of course, I did miss one place that doesn't say "killed and buried". Gore will be changed in the future to read "killed and buried" instead of just "buried".
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 1:08 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It all cases it is worded "killed and buried". Why? Because we wanted it to clearly be a two-step process, first it's killed, and then it's buried. All SAIs that can cause unit burial should read like that (with variations of course, in when it can save or not).


So does that mean that against a Swallow SAI, a Pheonix would get two chances to avoid burial if it failed to roll its ID (first against the killing part, then against the burying part)?
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:35 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes it would. It also means that Undead always get a chance (it some cases a second chance) to avoid burial.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 2:10 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not everyone reading the SAI description will interpret it as a two step process unless you specifically state in the rules that "killed and buried" is a two step process (and perhaps an example to illustrate how that two step process can work with racial abilities and/or other SAIs).

By myself, I would have interpreted "killed and buried" as a one step process (it goes directly to BUA).

Maybe a future SAI should be called "Buried Alive" which sends units directly to the BUA without going into the DUA first. Twisted Evil

-Brad
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 2:39 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about I add this to the Glossary:

Killed and Buried – This term refers to a two-step process of killing a unit (putting it in the DUA) and then burying the unit (putting it in the BUA). This is a two-step process to allow the unit to apply any racial abilities (Undead’s resistant to burial), unit abilities (Phoenix’s Rise from the Ashes), or spell affects (Honor the Dead), before burying the unit. Note that some effects allow avoidance rolls before killing or burying, however, whether or not there is an avoidance roll, that effect still is treated as a two-step process.
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First Place at the first ever Daemon Diceā„¢ sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Diceā„¢, 20,000 Daemon Diceā„¢, and others (too many to count).
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 4:31 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

That would work out great.

Very Happy
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