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Charging with the new rules?
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Darth Macho
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Joined: 28 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 7:21 am GMT    Post subject: Charging with the new rules? Reply with quote

I've downloaded and read the new advanced rules. I noticed that there was no mention of a "skirmish" or "charge" option as pertaining to the melee rules. Is the "charge" no longer an option under the new rules? I noticed that the evidence of this was also indicated by a change in the "Restless Dead" spell.

How do people feel this might affect the value and use of Cavalry Units? They are, of course, still great for maneuvering the terrain, but does this weaken their melee might substantially?
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Netherworlder
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 7:28 am GMT    Post subject: Charge Reply with quote

Charge is dead. SFR determined that this was unbalanced since maneuvering could double as melee damage during a charge. I always found charge to be a great strategic option. I miss it much (or would, if I really had time to play anymore)

-John
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Darth Macho
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 7:49 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sad Gone are the days of my five Mammoth riders thundering out of a highland eigth face for a potentially massive 75 hp of damage.
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eggsaladsandwich
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 9:47 pm GMT    Post subject: charging Reply with quote

i continue to include charging as a house rule, however i modified it a bit,
the attacking army has 1 roll that counts maneuvers and melee as hits and save results as saves. the defending army has 1 roll that counts maneuver and saves as saves and melee results as melee. den
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Majiken
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 10:25 pm GMT    Post subject: Re: Charge Reply with quote

Charge is dead.

Not in my part of Colorado, it ain't. This was one change my dicing group couldn't accept (among others), so we continue to use it. Taking away charge takes all the bite out of a Trogā„¢ or Dwarven cavalry. They can call it unbalanced all they want, to me it was always one of the fun parts of the game. Especially when your army had no hope of survival and you wanted to go out in a foolish (yet exciting), charge for glory. I can't count how many times that happened in one of our games, and in the Chill Wind Campaign.

Next thing you know, routing will get the boot for the same reason.

Wait a minute... I haven't read the new rules in a long tiime. They probably already did it! Wink

We'll stick to the DCM, thank you. The rest of you can play however you want. Very Happy
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eggsaladsandwich
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 5:00 pm GMT    Post subject: routing Reply with quote

anticipating the demise of routing, i have already made it a house rule that routing can only occur in the defending army when it is being charged by an already "house ruled" charge (see above comment on charging) Twisted Evil
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chuckpint
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 5:23 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no plan whatsoever of removing routing from the game. It is however, an advanced rule, so you'll only see it used during expert level games at tournaments.
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ddicerc
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:47 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
There is no plan whatsoever of removing routing from the game. It is however, an advanced rule, so you'll only see it used during expert level games at tournaments.


And not much even there. Heck, I so seldom remember routing that even when we allow it in our home games or on the CWC I don't use it. It would take special circumstances for it to be useful enough to me to enact it. I suppose that's one reason I'm not among the elite DD players...
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chuckpint
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:53 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's really fun is attacking someone with little hope of hurting them since they are on an eighth face. Then they route. Then you smack them bad. And they route again. Laughing Hey Joe, routing can be almost as much fun as charging. Try it on Steve sometime...
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Majiken
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:55 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuckpint wrote:
Hey Joe, routing can be almost as much fun as charging. Try it on Steve sometime...


Chuck, why don't you join in a CWC game one night and show me how it's done? Laughing
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riolis
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 10:52 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

NO CHARGE??? Crying or Very sad Ok yeah the Mammoth Rider was way to strong but no CHARGE at all, come on just a little twecking and the rule would be fine like just double melee or manuver not both or only the one that has the higher unmodifyied. and if they're manuvers count as save they could only count as damage or saves not both. The concept of the charge is an intergal part of any Historical battle. Besides Trapple becomes useless without Charge.
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cliffwiggs
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:41 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

riolis wrote:
Besides Trapple becomes useless without Charge.


I disagree with this statement. It is still an SAI, which means no spells can affect it and it still gives you two different types of results on a single die face.

It is still as useful an SAI as Fly.
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ddicerc
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:55 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

While Trample was a powerful SAI in a charge, any SAI that can give you two different results depending on what you're rolling for is a good SAI. If I play the Vagha™, my Mammoths aren't going into retirement. Smile
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riolis
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:04 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know just griping seeing as i'll never get to see my total crush in a tourny, 6+ Mammoth Riders on a highland with a minor terrain showing double manuvers trample well you know the results. then again i never really charged that much in the reg game but the PC all the time.
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laubackerj
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 8:58 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuckpint wrote:
What's really fun is attacking someone with little hope of hurting them since they are on an eighth face. Then they route. Then you smack them bad. And they route again. :lol: Hey Joe, routing can be almost as much fun as charging. Try it on Steve sometime...


This is exactly why routing sucks! Why would the army route if it took little or no damage? I don't mind routing as a concept, but the rules need to be tweaked a bit so it isn't 100% bad dice rolling luck - or no one will ever use the races that don't have many save icons.
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deputyfife
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:19 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

laubackerj wrote:
chuckpint wrote:
What's really fun is attacking someone with little hope of hurting them since they are on an eighth face. Then they route. Then you smack them bad. And they route again. Laughing Hey Joe, routing can be almost as much fun as charging. Try it on Steve sometime...


This is exactly why routing sucks! Why would the army route if it took little or no damage? I don't mind routing as a concept, but the rules need to be tweaked a bit so it isn't 100% bad dice rolling luck - or no one will ever use the races that don't have many save icons.


Smile Finally, someone else who thinks routing isn't indicative at all of real-life battlefield tactics, or balanced gameplay either.
Personally, I think if routing is going to be played the way it is, then when player A routs due to a bad luck roll, player B has the choice of either turning down the terrain and getting another action, with no casualties as a result of the original action's roll, or inflicting casualties as usual, and nothing else.
In historical battles (which, yes, I know DD has nothing to do with) routing VERY often occured without any casualties. In fact, most 'battles' ended without any fighting; two armies showed up, and at least one decided not to fight. But when fighting did occur, and an army routed, there were very few casualties, since the routing army was running away faster than they could be pursued. (Unless we are talking about a rout that occurs as a result of heavy losses, which the rules aren't reflecting at all.)

This is part of why the absence of charging doesn't really bother me. That cool idea of a charge we all have in our heads? Hardly ever occured, in history. Cavalry never charged in the Civil War. Heck, they weren't even horsed during battle. Further back, cavalry did charge some, but not often. Read accounts of the battle of Hastings; it is VERY hard to get a horse to run towards a sharp, pointy object. Or a line of such objects. Horses, even trained ones, will either turn away before reaching a line of spears and shields, or will never engage in a quick pace in the first place.

I know, DD is more about playing a game and firing up our imaginations. But I like to feel like the games I play are grounded in some realistic rules.
Even creatures such as Dwarves and Lava Elves wouldn't run their mounts headfirst into a defensive line. And if they routed, it would likely be due to a large number of their units failing to mount an effective defense.
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tim
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 10:22 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I first got involved with Dragon Diceā„¢ (only a few years ago) I, too, didn't understand why Charge had been removed. There was a big debate over it on the list (which was long before it had all the spam problems and was close) between Will and I. Eventually, I came to the "dark side", realizing that Charge was super unbalanced.

But that doesn't mean the option shouldn't be there. It just shouldn't be there as initially written. Smile

One of the work-arounds we came up with was in a Charge, only move results were counted as damage, and the opponent had to make a combo counter-attack/save roll. Another work around was that in a charge, ID icons were doubled instead of counting move and melee results.

I preferred the first one. Smile

Tim.
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tim
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 10:25 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

deputyfife wrote:
That cool idea of a charge we all have in our heads? Hardly ever occurred, in history.


Heh. No disrespect intended, but neither did Undead mages casting Finger of Death spells.

I just find it humorous that you are comparing historical battles to Dragon Diceā„¢. Smile

Tim.
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Arkain
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 11:50 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm still not sure about taking charge out completely... an example...

Dagonne Knight <Scalder army> PDF file description: Riding a powerful dragonee, this knight is master of the air, being swift and deadly in combat.

DEADLY in combat.. ahhh. YEA, 1 melee side now excluding ID. I mean the light melee is MORE DEADLY than the Dragonne Knight. Lady Nereid is more deadly, the Wyvern Rider is more deadly... heck you can go down to some uncommons that are more deadly than him when counting melee faces and icons.

Now my friend and I were playing and sure we tended to use more lights and Calvary when we used the charging rule, but we did not double the maneuvers it seemed more in line that way...

I mean there has to be a way to tone it down, maybe even say, maneuvers count as half rounded down damage....

And the idea of routing someone who's in a "fortified" <8Th face> when you cause little to no damage.. I agree to that once someone gets an 8Th it's hard to take it from them without routing or heavy SAI... but that makes less sense to me.

Not sure.. please don't do the battle history thing to me... I'm just spewing out my 2 cents.
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chuckpint
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 12:03 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, so your real point is that we need to update the racial pdf files? It's ongoing, but right now we are trying to get the racial starters done, and that's taking most of our free time...
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