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New Terrains
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How bad do you want new terrains?
I'd rather wait until we can make new molds.
63%
 63%  [ 14 ]
I want them now! I don't care about that other stuff
36%
 36%  [ 8 ]
Users Voted : 0
Total Votes : 22
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chuckpint
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 8:47 am GMT    Post subject: New Terrains Reply with quote

We've been kicking around the idea of new terrains on the cheap. By that I mean taking the current molds and putting different colors of plastic into them. For example, taking the Coastland mold and putting red/blue plastic into it for a new terrain "Wasteland" (think: Desert). The good news is that we would have 2 new terrains for the "missing" color combinations (we are not going to do terrains with black in them). So we would do red/blue and red/green. We don't have a good name for the red/green, but the thoughts are about a jungle-like terrain using the Swampland mold.

The bad news is that we would not have minor terrains matching those colors for a long time (unless we sell a lot of product, hint, hint Wink ). And since the terrains are merely a different color, with the same molded sides as 2 other terrains, it really only makes magic for a few races stronger, and does not add any new strategy otherwise. Ideas have been kicked around for different mold sides for new terrains, including new 8th faces, but we can't afford new molds. If we came out with new 8th faces, we would have a real hard time changing these 2 new terrains. In other words, the first 7 sides would be something that we would be stuck with forever. And we would not be making any other new terrains for a long time.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 11:23 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I think of Fire and Water, I think of a very hot liquid. So perhaps as an idea would be Volcano. I know it's similar to the Highlands, but the Highlands sounds more like mountains than volcanos. And any geologist worth his weight in gold ::pathetic attempt at joke:: knows that mountains and volcanos are completely different.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 11:37 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Volcano's are hot rock. Therefore Fire and Earth. Which is what the Highlands are modeled after. Think of Jungle as a rain forest jungle. That's where we get hot (Fire) and wet (Water). Hot and steamy, perfect for those Scalders (aka Steam Dancers).
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 6:58 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

new lands would better reflect the ever changing landscape of the game world and add a new level with lands that tie more to the newer races so i say if new combos even with old lay outs can be made then go for it.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:15 am GMT    Post subject: New Terrains Reply with quote

I have a suggestion that might work..
For the new color combinations,
Each New Terrain would be made with all the versions of terrains.
ie make a coastland,highland,swampland,flatland
with the red/blue colors and red/green colors
then there would be strategy and since you have each version of lands
the lack of a minor terrains would be made up. Very Happy

Perhaps maybe even different inks to make it easier to see which version the terrains were,
ie a red\blue coastland would have siver ink
a red\blue highland would have gold ink ect...
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:22 pm GMT    Post subject: Re: New Terrains Reply with quote

Jim Rayborn wrote:
Perhaps maybe even different inks to make it easier to see which version the terrains were, ie., a red\blue coastland would have siver ink, a red\blue highland would have gold ink ect...


I don't think changing the ink color would be necessary. After all, if the colors of the terrain are different, that should be sufficient. There's also the possibility of increased costs , something that has to be considered.

I do agree with Jim's other suggestions about which terrains to use. While I'd love to see some new 8th face icons, I know that's asking too much right now (but maybe in the future...).

As for the minor terrain issue, that's not too hard to solve. A small blurb in the rules regarding the new terrains could allow for highland or coastland minors to be used with the red/blue (wasteland?), and the swampland minors to be used with the red/green (scrubland? Laughing ).

Just out of curiosity though, how hard would it be to maybe toss in a third color, say... black? You could then make terrains using existing molds that had the Death element for the black races, while not having to change the molds. Again, just curious, not petitioning for it.

Just my .02.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:43 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Putting black into a terrain at this time has way too much potential to unbalance the game. Right now there are two ways to double black. One is the rather cheap spell, Deadlands. For 4 points of magic you get black in the terrain for as long as you can keep the terrain at it's same facing. Then there is doubling using the DUA. In any case, I haven't seen too many games were black magic was unable to double.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 2:40 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

My personal opinion is to go ahead and make the terrains. I think it will add to the strategy of which terrains to pick. I know the new ones would not have minor terrains, but I don't see that as a disadvantage.

In this case neither you nor your opponent can take advantage of a situation that is not on the terrain. If a melee army is on a missile face say at 3 and it would take three turns turns to get to melee, they can't just plop down a minor with some luck and do serious melee damage. It keeps the terrains predictable which in my mind has some great strategy value.

Scott C
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 2:51 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like to clarify:New Terrains could be made in the following colors:

Red/green in coastland/flatland/highland/swampland

Red/blue in coastland/flatland/highland/swampland

this way a player chooses which land they prefer
similar to choosing minor terrains

different colored inks could be used to as a way to tell which version the terrain was

a total of 32 new terrains
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:29 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuckpint wrote:
Putting black into a terrain at this time has way too much potential to unbalance the game.


Okay, I can see this now that it's been pointed out. As I said, I was just curious. Mr. Green

jimrayborn wrote:
Red/green in coastland/flatland/highland/swampland

Red/blue in coastland/flatland/highland/swampland <snip> a total of 32 new terrains


Huh? Not to be argumentative, but when there are only 16 original terrains, why would you double that with the new ones? Only four of each combo are needed, just like the other terrains. The question is, which set of molds do you use to make them?

I can see using the highland molds to make the new desert terrains, and the swampland molds could be used for the jungle. Viola', eight new terrains! Of course, this is neither here nor there until more important matters (like the new starters), are finalized.

Cheers!
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:51 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my opinion TSR did a mistake when they designed the terrain molds: The action icon distribution which you can see on face 1 to 7 is dependent on the terrain type (= on its two colors). In this way you would need one mold for each terrain (= one for highland, another one for swampland, and so on). Things would look different if the icon distribution on the seven faces would be dependent on the special location icon of the eight face. Then only one single mold would be enough to produce all four terrain types and any additional terrain you want to produce.
Imagine there would be a mold which looks like this:

8Standing StonesTempleTowerCity
7Melee Melee Melee Melee
6Melee Melee Melee Melee
5Missile Melee Missile Melee
4Missile Missile Missile Missile
3MagicMissile Missile Missile
2MagicMagic Missile Missile
1MagicMagic Magic Magic

This should be just one single mold; If it has 40 cavities, then 10 would be for Standing Stones, 10 for Temple, ... If you use this one mold to produce all 4 terrains, then each terrain with Standing Stones would have magic on the first three faces, no matter if it's a highland or a coastland or anything else. And each Tower would show exactly four missile icons, no matter which terrain. One mold would be enough. Is this better? - No; But it would have been much cheaper for TSR.
What is the intention of SFR? Should each new terrain get a new mold for its own? Since six two color combinations are missing (red/blue, red/green and all four colors together with black) it will become very expensive if you produce six new molds. It is worth a consideration to make the action icon distribution (on face 1 to 7) dependent from the eight face instead of the terrain type. Then only one new mold would be enough to produce several new terrains:
It could look like this:

8Dark Citadel
/ Ziggurat
Labyrinth
(original)
Labyrinth
(var 2)
SanctuaryDragon Lair
7Melee & Magic; °MeleeMagic; °Magic; °Melee
6Melee (& Magic??); °MeleeMelee; °Melee; °Melee
5Melee; ° Missile Missile Melee Missile & Melee
4Missile MagicMagicMissile Missile & Melee
3Missile MeleeMeleeMissile Missile
2MagicMissile Missile Missile Magic & Missile
1MagicMagicMagicMagicMagic
(° means the number is printed in a circlet)

Labyrinth: The idea behind is that you have to move it not more than one step up or down to come to the action you want to have. If your army is running around in a labyrinth, your enemy will be sometimes near (= melee) and in the next moment far away (= magic), no matter if you are in a highland or swamp. The labyrinth causes the chaotic icon distribution (and not the terrain type). The same for the Sanctuary: If armies come close to an eight face, they are forbidden to fight. Therefore a magic icon is shown on the seven. (If an army has captured a Sanctuary, all opposing armies may roll for whatever is shown on face 7. Normally it's melee, but here it's magic instead.)
Dragon Lair: What would be Dragon Diceā„¢ without this special location icon? It is somehow missing. Again: It's been the dragon, who has devastated the swamp/coast/mountain/... terrain and caused two icons to be shown on one face (I'm sure this is not a new idea; "Dual-lands" with 2 icons on one face is something everyone expects on new terrains.)

Here is a variant, which I would prefer (It is just a suggestion; If SFR does something else it's also ok):
First, there could be this background: Terrains with the black element could be seen as something special. They do not have the usual 4 location icons, instead they have four new. (Death would never accept a temple standing on one of his terrains, the same for Standing Stones (which is rather nature-magic), Tower and City.) So Death will get his four black terrains with four new location icons (but only one new mold). A Dark Citadel for instance could be some sort of anti-Temple. A Temple prevents black magic, a Dark Citadel does the opposite. And a labyrinth is also rather something, where you don't want to live. (If you have captured it, you have found the exit; i.e. you can move units without going to reserve first.) The same for Lair. (Since they are more interesting, one drawback of black terrains could be, that they have no minor terrains (Or minor terrains, which are weaker).)
What about red/blue Wasteland (Desert) and red/green Jungle (Fairyland)? Is it really worth to invest a lot of money only to replace one single melee with one missile icon for a new Wasteland terrain, which looks except for that one icon identical to an existing terrain type? A new Wasteland mold would be cool, but a new mold for something else would be even cooler (for instance: The fifth monsters, new & huge dragons designed for 36 health games, first part of Champions, a new race, ...) A lot of other ideas should have priority compared with new terrain molds. (Just my opinion. Rolling Eyes )

About minor terrains: How many molds do exist? I believe, there is just a single one, which has been used to produce all 16 minor terrains and which will be used again for new terrain types. Since the mold already exists, maybe it is not so difficult to produce Wasteland and Fairyland minor terrains this or next year (??).
How about this: In a Dwarves/Goblins starter there should be 4 terrains: One highland, one swamp. The third terrain could always be either Wasteland or Jungle. And the fourth terrain? Bingo - Always a Wasteland or Jungle minor terrain! It is said that Amazons/Swamp Stalker starters will fly off the shelves. Dwarves/Goblins will fly too if minors are present. Cool
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Last edited by Autpost on Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:55 pm GMT; edited 3 times in total
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:54 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Majiken Wrote:
Quote:
Huh? Not to be argumentative, but when there are only 16 original terrains, why would you double that with the new ones? Only four of each combo are needed, just like the other terrains. The question is, which set of molds do you use to make them?


I see your point Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:37 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Autpost wrote:
It could look like this:

8Dark CitadelLabyrinthSanctuaryDragon Lair
7Melee Melee Magic Melee
6Melee Melee Melee Melee
5Melee Missile Melee Missile & Melee
4Melee Magic Missile Missile & Melee
3Melee Melee Missile Missile
2MagicMissile Missile Magic & Missile
1MagicMagic Magic Magic



Wow! You put a lot of thought into the whole idea of new terrains. It certainly opens the door to some very creative possibilities.
I don't know enough about molds and costs to contribute. Chuck said that new molds are not an option at this time.
I guess the question would be why? Is it to complete some color combinations? Add new strategy for some races? Have something "new" come out? Jump start sales?
Whatever is made, I'm sure we will buy it from both the collecting standpoint as well as playing options. More terrains! Cool
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:32 pm GMT    Post subject: 16 original terrains Reply with quote

16 original terrains and 16 minor terrains =32
So Adding 32 new terrain combinations
Red/green in coastland/flatland/highland/swampland
Red/blue in coastland/flatland/highland/swampland
might work Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:45 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wuxia wrote:
I guess the question would be why? Is it to complete some color combinations? Add new strategy for some races? Have something "new" come out? Jump start sales?
I know that it's not the time for a new mold. I just want to point out that in future SFR could save a lot of money if a mold is designed in the right way, since it is not necessary to give each new terrain a new mold. (Probably SFR knows that anyway.) So forget the suggestion for a single new black terrain mold, it was just an example for a possible future. (I have already deleted it from my last post).
1.) Originally I had a different suggestion: For starter packs use the 4 existing molds to produce all 10 two-color lands, including the black ones. Then remove Deadlands and the "double black magic via DUA" rule (Undeads may still be allowed to use this rule, but not the other races; They are able to double black magic via terrain only.) Each of these 10 lands would have City, Tower, Temple and S. Stones, so there would be 40 different terrain dice (which would not be so difficult to collect, since you will find 4 (or 2) terrains in one starter pack). Finally in some years one (and only one) new terrain mold can be produced, which could introduce 4 new 8th faces together with a new icon distribution on face 1 - 7. This will give 40 more terrains. In the first moment it is irritating that you will have 80 different terrains, but I think collectors will still welcome this.
2.) A different possibility for the DD future is that terrains could be divided in two groups: Nature terrains (= every terrain which is not black) and death terrains. Nature terrains have in this way a rather boring icon distribution (Magic on low numbers, missile in the middle, then melee), but on the other hand they have minor terrains and a powerful 8th face. Death terrains have black magic and a more interesting icon distribution, but there are no minor terrains and 4 new 8th face icons, which could give a controlling army a drawback as well (If you have captured a Dragon Lair, a dragon will appear & attack your army for instance). In this version City, Tower, Temple and S. Stones can be found only on nature terrains, death terrains will have something else (which can't be found on nature terrains). Finally in this variant there would be 24 nature and 16 death terrains.
3.) It's also possible to use all 4 existing molds with all 10 two color combinations. That would give 4 * 10 * 4 = 160 different dice. Each unit can have it's own home terrain. This would be somehow interesting, but it also spoils the game.
4.) "I'd rather wait until we can make new molds."? I have not voted for this, since I don't know if these new molds are worth the wait. Everyone gave his vote and no one has asked how a Wasteland and a Jungle should exactly look like if new molds would be produced for them. Maybe it's better to take what you can get instead of waiting for something better (which will turn out to be just different). If they are not produced now, it may happen that they will be produced never, because there always will be something else which should get a new mold rather than Wasteland & Jungle. Additionally with new terrains starter packs will be even more interesting. I would prefer if they are produced now, but it's not a must; I can also wait for a new mold. Neutral
Quote:
In a Dwarves/Goblins starter there should be 4 terrains: One highland, one swamp. The third terrain could always be either Wasteland or Jungle.
Wasteland & Jungle would fit better into the elves starter. Both terrains have exactly one color in common with an elf: Lava elves can double red magic and Corals can double the other color of the terrain (blue or green).
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 12:38 pm GMT    Post subject: Why I Voted New Molds Reply with quote

Desert and Jungle. Interesting choices, but neither fits a current distribution well.

In the Jungle I would expect missile to be nearly useless since you can't see what you are aiming for. I'd want to see this terrain have a 1 - 3 magic, 4 missile (if necessary) and a 4 - 7 (preferred) or a 5 -7 melee.

Desert provides great line of sight to missile becomes more important. I'd probably put this at 1 magic 2 - 5 missile and 6 - 7 melee.

Just remolding old layouts in new colors doesn't add much to the strategy, plus you could just proxy existing terrain if needed. I'd really like to wait until new layouts could be devised.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:58 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since SFR wrote that suggestions should not be withdrawn I added the deleted text and an updated table again (see page 1 of this topic). I have thought I am doing a favor if I remove these ideas, because they don't fit into this topic and have nothing to do with upcoming starter packs.
This should be my third and probably last post about a black terrain mold. SFR can use, modify, rename and ignore these suggestions in any way they want.

Which names should black terrains have? Since I don't know better I use this: A blue Lair is a blue & black terrain which has a Lair on its 8th face. It is not necessary to call it "black/blue Lair", because here all Lairs are black. The same for Fire-Citadel: It's a black/red terrain whose special location icon has the proposed name Dark Citadel. Some comments about the four black location icons:

Lair: You can say it has a built in minor terrain. There is even the disaster face: If you capture it, (a free dragon attack must be taken or whatever).

Labyrinth: If it turns out that his icon distribution is for any reason too powerful, then a penalty can be added to its 8th face icon. For instance saves and maneuvers are not doubled if it is captured. This could be a drawback for all black terrains. (In general it is a big advantage if a new icon distribution is linked with one special location icon (instead of the terrain type and its color combination). If it is broken you can fix it in a simple way by changing the effect of the location icon.)
If you have captured a Labyrinth you can move units to or from the labyrinth without going to reserve. (Sorry, I have stolen this idea from the Firewalkers.)

Citadel: In this suggestion it has melee & magic on its 7th face. This sounds good, but it isn't. It is a drawback for the terrain, because if you have captured it, all opposing armies may roll for what is shown on its 7th face, hence they may either attack you with melee or roll for magic. So armies can be lured to your terrain. Things look different in a multiplayer game if you have an allied player: He may move his army to the Citadel you control. Here he can roll for magic and if suddenly a third (unwanted) player appears, then your ally can change to melee attack to throw out the third player and defend your territory. (Since a Lair has faces with magic & missile and missile & melee, there should be a terrain witch has a face with melee & magic too.)
The Citadel could be seen as a corrupted temple. It protects an army and units from spells of its second (nature) color. So at a Fire-Citadel an army and its units cannot be the target of red spells. (It doesn't prevent black magic (that would be the job of a temple), just its nature color). There are four new 8th face icons, but actually you can say that you have at least seven new, because the four Citadels would work quite different, since each protects from a different color. (The Earth-Citadel prevents gold magic, Air-Citadel prevents blue magic, and so on; In this way I've tried to make the location icons even more different and interesting.)
If you want to add more complexity then some numbers on the terrains faces could be printed in a circle. This means, the special location icon extends some of his abilities to every face, where the number is shown in a circlet (just like a Dragon Slayer extends his immunity to his army). In case of the Citadel there could be a circle around the 7, 6 and 5. (This means it's enough if you come close to a Citadel to gain protection, you don't have to capture it.) Example: Your army is located at an Air Citadel, which is showing the "4". So your units can be the target of a Lightning Strike. If the terrain would show the "5", then blue spells cannot target your (and any other) army and its Centaurs any more. If a player captures the Air Citadel he will get the advantage that only his army is immune against blue spells, whereas opposing armies are suddenly naked (Hence: Lightning Strike). Still it would be attractive for your opponents to move armies to your Citadel, because here they can roll for magic (and melee). (And if saves and maneuvers are not doubled by black terrains, then there really would be a fight for the 8th face and it's protection.)
A better name for this location icon could be: Ziggurat, if you see it as a corrupted temple (instead of Citadel, which is a part of a fortress);
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziggurat ;

Sanctuary: The name does not fit to a black terrain unless it is called "Death Sanctuary", "Evil Sanctuary" or at least "Twisted Sanctuary". Maybe it should be renamed. If you have captured it your army could get a strange penalty, which is also a bonus: Whenever an army in this terrain should make a roll, 12 units are chosen by the armys owner. Only those 12 units (and items they can carry) may be rolled.
It could be broken since it shows only magic on its 7th face: This will lead to the point that your opponents armies are lured to the terrain, because there they can roll for magic. However they cannot attack the controlling army with melee and this could become a paradise for Canadians. (Ok, Sneak Attack does still work, but that's all.) So capturing the Sanctuary must have an anti-Canadian effect. Therefore the restriction to 12 units.

Labyrinth (2. version): I don't like the idea of a Sanctuary, so I have moved the "7th face shows only magic" idea to a second variant of the Labyrinth. To prevent Canadian the Labyrinth has now the ability that it's getting narrow on higher numbers, hence only 12 units can be rolled, if a circled "6", "7" or "8" is shown (although there may be more than 12 units in an army). (It is also possible to rule: "If a Labyrinth shows a circled number, then during each players retreat step, that player must retreat units (not health) down to 12". So before you will come to your next retreat step, you may have & roll more than 12 units in your army.)

Other names for 8th face icons: Castle, Fortress, Stronghold, Arena, Ghost Town, ...

And that's it. As said before I'm aware that new terrains (except red/green and red/blue) are not a theme, but maybe SFR has use for some of these suggestions.
chuckpint wrote:
Most of the cost is still in the molds, and in the setup of the molding. The cost of the plastic is a way distant fourth or fifth. Packaging costs more than the plastic. There was also some drawings about new terrains (with black!) to go with Unearthly. But no rules, or anything else useful. So talk about it all you want, it's not going to happen anytime soon (read: years).
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Majiken
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:50 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, considering that Chuck has made it clear that there will not be any terrains with black in them (in the near future anyway, if ever), we're only kidding ourselves. Still, discussion is always fun. Laughing

My thought on a black terrain was to have an icon I named, "Crypt." Basically, it worked like a temple with a twist. You buried a unit from an opponent's DUA and brought in one of your own, or promoted it. Kind of a city/temple combo.

I even went so far as to use modeling putty to fill in the 8th icon of a spare coastland, carve the crypt icon in it, then paint the whole think black with silver specks. Came out nice and was a lot of fun. I have no idea where it is today. Confused

Oh well, c'est la vie.
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DEEPBLUEB2
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 10:39 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

We waited for Treefolk;
in that wait the ownership of Dragon Diceā„¢ was changed to SFR.
Wonderful job in continuing the final color combination,
and the plastic matched beautifully!
Good things come to those who wait;
so waiting for new molds to complete the terrain's color combinations would be something to look forward to.
I see a bright star in the distance. Cool

Jim Rayborn
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laubackerj
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 7:54 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd love to see new terrains!! Even without minors.
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