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Modifiers Clarification

 
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Jay Loomis
dragonmount



Joined: 09 Feb 2006
Posts: 42
Location: Bellevue, WA

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 4:35 am GMT    Post subject: Modifiers Clarification Reply with quote

I played a couple of games today. On a lark I played this army:
4 Owl-Folk
3 Lion-Folk
2 Elephant-Folk

I though I would get wiped out pretty quick with an all monster army, but I did pretty well against a total newcomer playing an undead army (dispel SAIs are awesome!).

Anyway, more than once I got into a situation where I had the eighth face and was defending in melee and got two trumpet SAIs along with one or more save results. The rules are clear that multiplication happens after subtraction and division, but I don't see anything about how multiple multiplication effects stack together (not saying that it isn't there--I just can't find it).

So, let's say I have the eighth face and roll a single save with a monster for four results and two trumpet results. Which way does it work?

1.) 4 saves x 2 for eighth face = 8 x 2 for first trumpet = 16 x 2 for second trumpet = 32

2.) 4 saves x 6 (2 for eighth face + 2 for first trumpet + 2 for second trumpet) = 24 saves

I'm assuming #2 is correct, but I'd love some official clarification.

Thanks!
Jay
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chuckpint
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 7:59 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

3.) 4 saves x 2 for Trumpet = 8 x 2 for eighth face = 16.

Multiple Trumpets do not stack. See "Targeting" on page 27 under "SPECIAL ACTION ICONS – GENERAL INFORMATION". Also see example #5 on page 28.

Also note: Trumpet doubles the Feral unit's results. This is very important. Lets say that you have an army of mixed units at an eighth face and you are rolling for saves. Your army is under the effect of the following spells: Ash Storm, Black Rain, Stoneskin and Wilding. You roll and get a Trumpet and 4 normal saves on the Feral units, 2 on a Badger-folk, and 2 on a Horse-folk. You also get 2 on a Treefolk Willow. Here's how you resolve it:

First apply unit modifiers:
In this case Trumpet is a unit multiplier, so all the Feral unit saves are doubled, so the Badger-folk save is doubled to 4, and the Horse-folk save is doubled to 4. Wilding is also a unit modifier, so double the Badger-folk again to 8.

So after applying unit modifiers, the army save roll is 14 (8 for Badger-folk, 4 for Horse-folk, and 2 for Willow).

Next we subtract army modifiers:
We subtract one for the Ash Storm, results are now 13.

Next we divide army modifiers:
Black Rain halves the results (round down), so our results are now 6.

Next we apply army multipliers:
Double results for the eighth face, so our results are now 12.

Last add any army modifiers:
Add one for the Stoneskin, so our results are now 13

Final results: 13
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 10:13 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="piMaster"] (7) Apply unit modifiers.
(8 ) Apply army modifiers.[/quote]
Why is Trumpet a unit modifier, but not the double maneuver race-specific ability of the Dwarves (which is resolved later as an army modifier)? In both cases only the results of one race in your army are doubled. Wouldn't it be easier if Ferals Trumpet & Dwarves/Goblins double maneuvers are resolved at the same moment in the timing backbone? Instead of "Dwarves may, when at a highland terrain, ..." you could write: "Dwarven units may, when at a highland terrain, ..."
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chuckpint
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:17 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reason that Trumpet doubles units vs racial doubling results, is simply flavor. Ok, your point that it makes it more complex is good. But on the other hand, if SAIs are not wonderful and complex, then no one would want to bring the unit that has that SAI. In other words, it adds to the depth of the game.

So bottom line: it's an arbitrary marketing decision. Mr. Green Shocked
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Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
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piMaster
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:44 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In both cases only the results of one race in your army are doubled. Wouldn't it be easier if Ferals Trumpet & Dwarves/Goblins double maneuvers are resolved at the same moment in the timing backbone?


Actually, I'd have to agree with this. Racial abilities that double a unit's results would make more sense as a unit modifier (and thus applied during the racial abilities step of the unit modification sequence).

Racial abilities that count one result as another (Coral Elf) or add results to the army's total (Scalder Intangability) make sense during the army modification sequence. These racial abilities are basically addition modifiers to the army's total, so we add them in right before we apply other types of addition modifiers.

Changing this would make applying modifiers more consistant, and I don't think that it would downgrade anyone's opinion of some SAIs.
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chuckpint
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:17 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

However, it would make racial abilities more powerful. Now you get to double the maneuvers of your Goblins (at a Swampland of course), only after applying modifiers that subtract and divide. If you made it a unit modifier, then you double it first, then subtract and divide with army modifiers. Here's an example:

Say at a Swampland, an all-Goblin army rolls for maneuvers. Cast on this army is a Transmute Rock to Mud, and cast on the Swampland is a Wall of Fog. Let's say the Goblins roll and get 7 maneuvers.

First the current way:
Subtract six maneuvers for the Transmute Rock to Mud. That leaves you one. Then half the maneuvers with the Wall of Fog. Half of 1 becomes zero (always round down). Total maneuvers is zero

Second racial ability is unit-based:
First double all the units, your total becomes 14. Then subtract 6 maneuvers for the Transmute Rock to Mud. That leaves you 8. Then half the maneuvers with the Wall of Fog. Total maneuvers is four.

So can we make this change? Yes. Will it unbalance a game that we just spend 5 years balancing? Most likely. Without a lot of play-testing, there is no way I'd want to make this change. So my final answer: it's not changing.
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First Place at the first ever Daemon Diceā„¢ sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Diceā„¢, 20,000 Daemon Diceā„¢, and others (too many to count).
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