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chuckpint
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:25 pm GMT    Post subject: Newest rules are up Reply with quote

The newest rules are up on the website at: http://www.sfr-inc.com/StarterRules.pdf. These rules while they only have very minor rules updates, have one major format update. All the dice icons are in the rules! Very Happy Pretty pictures for all of them.

There is in the rules, a hint as to some new stuff to come. I'll be curious to see who figures it out first. Of course, I'm swearing all the people that helped with the new rules to secrecy. Evil or Very Mad
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 6:32 am GMT    Post subject: My lips are sealed Chuck Reply with quote

My lips are sealed Chuck, wait till the rest of you find the new stuff you'll flip out Mr. Green Shocked Mr. Green
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:57 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

My lips are not sealed, I've found it too; (I found it already three days ago):
(Scroll down, if you want to know.)















The Defender and the Dispatcher have now the correct ID-icons!!!
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 10:17 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

(Just kidding; This isn't the big info. You have to find it by yourself.)

I would say there are at least two hints for new stuff, one of them is easy to find, the other more difficult.
BTW: The die with the most ridiculous name doesn't exist anymore ("The golden Silver Buckler")
However a few old typos and supposed rule errors are still there. For instance check the examples on page 29: You will find a funny typo in the second example and something which you can somehow call a rule error in the third example below (concerning Mirage). I also want to ask if the first line of page 104 is correct (= "For every full three health points of other units a player brings to a game, they are allowed (but not required) to bring one health point of Dragonkin."): Does it really mean "unit" or shouldn't it be "component" instead? I don't know.

Scalders again:
What's old: Scalders list their icons as "Frostwing Unit Icons". (See: http://sfr-inc.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=450 )
What's new: If you click on the left side in the StarterRules.pdf (in the bookmarks) on Scalder icons they will show the Treefolk icons instead.
Scalders don't like themselves. Wink
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:00 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
BTW: The die with the most ridiculous name doesn't exist anymore ("The golden Silver Buckler")

Yeah, that was bothering me too Mr. Green

Quote:
However a few old typos and supposed rule errors are still there. For instance check the examples on page 29: You will find a funny typo in the second example and something which you can somehow call a rule error in the third example below (concerning Mirage).


I don't see any problems with the examples on page 29 (either spelling or rules wise). Could you be more specific?

Quote:
I also want to ask if the first line of page 104 is correct


It should be component. I missed that one Crying or Very sad After you read them thru a thousand times, you tend to gloss over some things. That's a good catch though.

Quote:
What's old: Scalders list their icons as "Frostwing Unit Icons".


Where do the Scalders list their icons as Frostwings???
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 6:08 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, wow!! Just read the new rules!! I can't believe that in the new sets SFR is going to
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:07 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Autpost wrote:

However a few old typos and supposed rule errors are still there. For instance check the examples on page 29: You will find a funny typo in the second example


Fixed

Autpost wrote:
and something which you can somehow call a rule error in the third example below (concerning Mirage).


I don't see the problem with this one. Please explain.

Autpost wrote:
I also want to ask if the first line of page 104 is correct (= "For every full three health points of other units a player brings to a game, they are allowed (but not required) to bring one health point of Dragonkin."): Does it really mean "unit" or shouldn't it be "component" instead? I don't know.


Fixed

Autpost wrote:
Scalders again:
What's old: Scalders list their icons as "Frostwing Unit Icons". (See: http://sfr-inc.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=450 )
What's new: If you click on the left side in the StarterRules.pdf (in the bookmarks) on Scalder icons they will show the Treefolk™ icons instead.
Scalders don't like themselves. Wink


Somehow you managed to get an old copy. The current copy doesn't have 104 pages.... I'm not sure how that happened. This problem no longer exists.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:40 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't see the problem with this one. Please explain

Perhaps the problem is the way its written - there's a lot going on in that example. What if we change it to:

Example: If a Mirage spell targets a Coral Elf army located at a Coastland terrain and several Firebolt spells target individual units in that army, the order in which the spells are resolved could make a difference. If the Firebolts were resolved first, then the units could count their maneuvers as saves. If you hit the army with the Mirage first and the units targeted by the Firebolts go to the reserves, then the units targeted by the Firebolt spells could not count their maneuvers as saves (since the units are in the reserve when the Firebolt spells are resolved). Since Firebolt targets individual units, it doesn’t matter where the units are when you announce the spell and where they are when you resolve the spell - magic has no range. They are still the announced targets and you can hit them even if they have moved in the mean time.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:50 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Changed to text as suggested.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 6:46 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Somehow you managed to get an old copy.
I have downloaded the Starter rules one day after they have been mentioned first in this forum (in the GenCon announcement), that was two days before this topic started. (Riolis seems to have the old copy too; If pages are squared it's the old copy, if they look normal, it's the newer version.)
Quote:
The Defender and the Dispatcher have now the correct ID-icons
This is only true for this old (squared) copy (but not for the new one).

About the Mirage example (page 14 in the newer version): It isn't really a rule error, therefore I've worded it so carefully. It just says " If a Mirage spell targets a Coral Elf army ..." and "If you hit the army with the Mirage first ...". If you write it in this way someone might believe that Mirage targets an opposing army directly and then he is surprised because his army in the same terrain is affected as well. (You can say: If a spell targets a terrain then all armies in that terrain are targeted as well, and all units in all armies are also targeted. So it's not an error.)
(On the bottom of page 28 there is a similar example: "An opponent casts a Black Rain spell against this unit’s army." If you write: "... against this unit’s terrain." it would be more clear, but it's also ok in the way it is, because everyone knows what is meant.)
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 9:04 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

New version up on the website. First page should say "June 18".

Fixed a number of places where terrain-targeting spell examples were incorrect.

I don't see the problem with the Defender and Dispatcher icons.

Please post any problems that are found. And please be very clear on what you see as a problem. These rules will be printed into the new starters. I'm hoping to start that process this week (nudge, wink).

BTW, the 5 3/4" x 5 3/4" version is how it will print in the starters. I made a newer version that will print on 8 1/2" x 11" sheets (should also print on A4). That second version is made into the PDF posted on the website.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 3:12 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are some more comments:

Page 71.5: In my pdf version there are no Frostwing icons at all; There are Swamp Stalkers (page 71) and then Scalders (page 72), but no Frostwings.
p7: "Note: Components have a magic point value equal to their health."; Suggestion: "Magic using components have a ..."
p8: "Players should sit around the table in clockwise order from the first player to speed play along and make it easier to keep track of turn sequence." ("turn sequence" is defined differently in the Glossary, but it can mean both (here it is "Order of play")).
Page 29 & page 59: "Multiple castings increase the number of health/units affected;" (Wilding uses "components"; No spell uses "units" (?))
Page 32: Soiled ground: "... must roll a save or be buried instead." Suggestion: "... must roll a save or be buried additionally."
Page 41: "Cantrip: Resolution Type: Normal (magic action or magic negation roll); Unique (non-magic action or non-maneuver avoidance roll)" Here I would add: "or save roll" too, because in the description below it also says save roll:
"During a magic action or magic negation roll, Cantrip generates magic results. During any non-magic action, save roll or non-maneu­ver avoidance roll, Cantrip can be used to purchase spells that are immediately resolved."
Also: Firewalking & Teleport & DKC-logo & Medallion-logo: "Resolution Type: Normal (maneuver); Special (any action or non-maneuver avoidance roll)" - "or save roll" is missing here too.
Or just simple: Special (any non-maneuver roll)
p41: "During a save roll, Bash generates saves results. During a save roll against a melee attack, (additionally??) choose a unit in the ..."
Just to be sure: During a save roll against a melee attack Bash does both: 3 saves plus reflect. ?
p41: Bullseye: "... may individually target one or more units as the acting player chooses."
"... may individually target one or more units in the defending army as the acting player chooses."
p54: Dragonslayer: "Furthermore, it extends this immunity to the rest of the army it is with and all indi­vidual units within that army. xxx Dragonslayers can double ID magic normally ..."
xxx = This one sentence could be missing: "Dragonslayers can cast any color of magic (with their ID) (not just the colors of their current terrain). (?)"

p10: "Example 5: Four black dragons attack an army. The dragons roll Belly, Treasure, Breath, and Claw. After applying the results of the Treasure (promoting a unit) and the Breath (removing five health-worth of units) the army rolls ..."
Shouldn't it be: Breath first, then Treasure.
From the same example: "Note: the ID icons are ignored because of the Breath effects."
Suggestion: "Note: the results from ID icons are ignored because of the Breath effects." (Because a group monster doesn't ignore the ID icon, just it's (normal) results and is still rerolled?)
p14: "You must have at least two armies in play to take a Second March. A player with only one army can only take one march."
Example: You have just one last unit in play, a Dwarven Wizard. He rolls for an action and Cantrip comes up, which he uses to cast Path on himself to move to another terrain. May he take a Second March? No, because you must have two armies.
p18: Red Dragon Breath (Flame): "Flame" is already the name of a SAI; Wouldn't it be better to call it somehow different (and more impressive)? (like "Searing Flame" or whatever)
p20: "Standing Stones: If your army controls a terrain with this icon, it allows units to cast magic of the terrain’s colors ..."
Suggestion: "If your army controls a terrain with this icon, it allows its units (in this terrain (only)) to cast ..."
p20: "An army controlling a Temple can still cast black magic upon itself (e.g. Open Grave) and the Temple has no affect on the army’s ability to double black magic."
Suggestion: "An army controlling a Temple can still cast black magic upon itself (e.g. Open Grave) and on it's units (e.g. Fade) (?) and the Temple has no affect on the
army’s ability to double black magic."
p24: "Mutation: During the Initial Effects phase, if you have at least one Swamp Stalker unit ..."
Suggestion: "Mutation: During the Initial Effects phase (of your turn only), if you have at least one Swamp Stalker unit ..."
p33: Backlash: "the army must save against an amount of damage equal to the combined casting costs of all spells cast."
"... equal to the combined casting costs of all spells (successfully (i.e. not dispelled)??) cast."

And finally:
Isn't it possible to introduce a new term for 4-sided items? For instance: "Equipment", because that is what they are (something you are wearing on your body); Then: Magical items = 4-sided Equipment + 10-sided Artifacts, (just like: Component = unit + magical item, or: location = terrain + reserve area). If the rules use the term "magical item", a beginner will always ask: Is this rule also true for artifacts? (Answer: Yes). It would be good if 4-siders have a name by it's own.

I believe months ago I have sent a pdf (with the name DDadvRules_GerCommented.pdf) to SFR with all those rewording suggestions & some more. It is too much to read, but you can quickly scroll through it. Only parts of the green and the pink text are interesting, ignore the rest. Maybe you will find something else which can be used.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 6:17 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Page 71.5: In my pdf version there are no Frostwing icons at all; There are Swamp Stalkers (page 71) and then Scalders (page 72), but no Frostwings.

All of the icons are correct in the version I downloaded.
Quote:
Page 29 & page 59: "Multiple castings increase the number of health/units affected;" (Wilding uses "components"; No spell uses "units" (?))

On p. 32, Wilding uses the word components. Lightning Strike uses the word units.
Quote:
Page 32: Soiled ground: "... must roll a save or be buried instead." Suggestion: "... must roll a save or be buried additionally."

Nope, it is worded correctly. The unit is already in the DUA when it must roll because of the Soiled Ground spell. See the "Killed and Buried" entry in the glossary.
Quote:
p14: "You must have at least two armies in play to take a Second March. A player with only one army can only take one march."
Example: You have just one last unit in play, a Dwarven Wizard. He rolls for an action and Cantrip comes up, which he uses to cast Path on himself to move to another terrain. May he take a Second March? No, because you must have two armies.

Yes, he may take a second march. When you path a unit to a terrain where you do not already have an army, a new army is created. Since you have not yet taken a march with this army yet, you can use it for your second march.
Quote:
p33: Backlash: "the army must save against an amount of damage equal to the combined casting costs of all spells cast."
"... equal to the combined casting costs of all spells (successfully (i.e. not dispelled)??) cast."

I believe the intent was all spells cast. Whether or not they are dispelled is irrelevant. Dispel Magic occurs after the spells are cast.
Quote:
p41: "During a save roll, Bash generates saves results. During a save roll against a melee attack, (additionally??) choose a unit in the ..."
Just to be sure: During a save roll against a melee attack Bash does both: 3 saves plus reflect. ?

No, during a save roll in melee it just reflects. If it did both, it would say so explicitly.

I'll leave the rest for Chuck. Most of the rest of your points I would agree with, though I don't think we need a new term for 4-sided dice.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:45 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Autpost wrote:
Page 71.5: In my pdf version there are no Frostwing icons at all; There are Swamp Stalkers (page 71) and then Scalders (page 72), but no Frostwings.
Update your version, you will see the Frostwing page.

Autpost wrote:
p7: "Note: Components have a magic point value equal to their health."; Suggestion: "Magic using components have a ..."
Fixed

Autpost wrote:
p8: "Players should sit around the table in clockwise order from the first player to speed play along and make it easier to keep track of turn sequence." ("turn sequence" is defined differently in the Glossary, but it can mean both (here it is "Order of play")).
Changed "sequence" to "order".

Autpost wrote:
Page 29 & page 59: "Multiple castings increase the number of health/units affected;" (Wilding uses "components"; No spell uses "units" (?))
Ok as is, see Lightning Strike.

Autpost wrote:
Page 32: Soiled ground: "... must roll a save or be buried instead." Suggestion: "... must roll a save or be buried additionally."
Fixed, dropped the "instead". That makes it consistent with the idea that first a unit is killed, then it's buried.

Autpost wrote:
Page 41: "Cantrip: Resolution Type: Normal (magic action or magic negation roll); Unique (non-magic action or non-maneuver avoidance roll)" Here I would add: "or save roll" too, because in the description below it also says save roll:
"During a magic action or magic negation roll, Cantrip generates magic results. During any non-magic action, save roll or non-maneu­ver avoidance roll, Cantrip can be used to purchase spells that are immediately resolved."
Also: Firewalking & Teleport & DKC-logo & Medallion-logo: "Resolution Type: Normal (maneuver); Special (any action or non-maneuver avoidance roll)" - "or save roll" is missing here too.
Or just simple: Special (any non-maneuver roll)
All fixed. Note: Teleport and DKC-logo do not work in a save roll. This is intended...

Autpost wrote:
p41: "During a save roll, Bash generates saves results. During a save roll against a melee attack, (additionally??) choose a unit in the ..."
Just to be sure: During a save roll against a melee attack Bash does both: 3 saves plus reflect. ?
No. I changed the "Normal(save)" to "Normal(non-melee save)".

Autpost wrote:
p41: Bullseye: "... may individually target one or more units as the acting player chooses."
"... may individually target one or more units in the defending army as the acting player chooses."
Ok, added your text, but I think it's redundant.

Autpost wrote:
p54: Dragonslayer: "Furthermore, it extends this immunity to the rest of the army it is with and all indi­vidual units within that army. xxx Dragonslayers can double ID magic normally ..."
xxx = This one sentence could be missing: "Dragonslayers can cast any color of magic (with their ID) (not just the colors of their current terrain). (?)"
Added the same text as Dragonlords.

Autpost wrote:
p10: "Example 5: Four black dragons attack an army. The dragons roll Belly, Treasure, Breath, and Claw. After applying the results of the Treasure (promoting a unit) and the Breath (removing five health-worth of units) the army rolls ..."
Shouldn't it be: Breath first, then Treasure.
From the same example: "Note: the ID icons are ignored because of the Breath effects."
Suggestion: "Note: the results from ID icons are ignored because of the Breath effects." (Because a group monster doesn't ignore the ID icon, just it's (normal) results and is still rerolled?)
You are right it wasn't consistent. Changed the order and changed "ID icons" to "ID results". Group monsters would still reroll their IDs, but ID results are negated.

Autpost wrote:
p14: "You must have at least two armies in play to take a Second March. A player with only one army can only take one march."
Example: You have just one last unit in play, a Dwarven Wizard. He rolls for an action and Cantrip comes up, which he uses to cast Path on himself to move to another terrain. May he take a Second March? No, because you must have two armies.
That would be wrong. That player did have two armies during that turn. Just not at the same time. Going by your logic, if on the first march, his army was destroyed by a melee counter-attack, then he could not take a second march with another army because he only has one army. I think it's fine as is.

Autpost wrote:
p18: Red Dragon Breath (Flame): "Flame" is already the name of a SAI; Wouldn't it be better to call it somehow different (and more impressive)? (like "Searing Flame" or whatever)
I don't really see this as confusing.

Autpost wrote:
p20: "Standing Stones: If your army controls a terrain with this icon, it allows units to cast magic of the terrain’s colors ..."
Suggestion: "If your army controls a terrain with this icon, it allows its units (in this terrain (only)) to cast ..."
Not needed. The subject of the sentence is "your army". That means the units referred to, have to be from that army.

Autpost wrote:
p20: "An army controlling a Temple can still cast black magic upon itself (e.g. Open Grave) and the Temple has no affect on the army’s ability to double black magic."
Suggestion: "An army controlling a Temple can still cast black magic upon itself (e.g. Open Grave) and on it's units (e.g. Fade) (?) and the Temple has no affect on the army’s ability to double black magic."
Again, casting on the army or units in the army, is encompassed by simply referring to the army.

Autpost wrote:
p24: "Mutation: During the Initial Effects phase, if you have at least one Swamp Stalker unit ..."
Suggestion: "Mutation: During the Initial Effects phase (of your turn only), if you have at least one Swamp Stalker unit ..."
Changed it to "During your Initial Effects phase...".
Autpost wrote:
p33: Backlash: "the army must save against an amount of damage equal to the combined casting costs of all spells cast."
"... equal to the combined casting costs of all spells (successfully (i.e. not dispelled)??) cast."
Whether the spells are successful or not, they have been cast. The casting cost determines the damage. Otherwise, that Lightning Strike that gets saved against, is it successful?

Autpost wrote:
And finally:
Isn't it possible to introduce a new term for 4-sided items? For instance: "Equipment", because that is what they are (something you are wearing on your body); Then: Magical items = 4-sided Equipment + 10-sided Artifacts, (just like: Component = unit + magical item, or: location = terrain + reserve area). If the rules use the term "magical item", a beginner will always ask: Is this rule also true for artifacts? (Answer: Yes). It would be good if 4-siders have a name by it's own.
Sure it's possible, but I don't see why it's needed. And the magic item definition is pretty clear on this.

Autpost wrote:
I believe months ago I have sent a pdf (with the name DDadvRules_GerCommented.pdf) to SFR with all those rewording suggestions & some more. It is too much to read, but you can quickly scroll through it. Only parts of the green and the pink text are interesting, ignore the rest. Maybe you will find something else which can be used.
Thought I addressed all the items in there that made sense. I might have missed one or two, but if it seems I ignored something, I most likely had a good reason.
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My collection is 21,500 Dragon Dice™, 20,000 Daemon Dice™, and others (too many to count).


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:50 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

New version is up. On the end of the first page, it says "Version 2.0". If the version you download, doesn't say that, you got the wrong version.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:05 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

The table of contents of the rules on the website is not correct. Then again, since there are no page numbers on the rules, I guess that's not too much of a problem Wink
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:46 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Knew I forgot something. I've updated the TOC (have to do in manually, how stupid is that). I've added page numbers to every page.
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My collection is 21,500 Dragon Dice™, 20,000 Daemon Dice™, and others (too many to count).
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Deeghter
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Joined: 03 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2007 12:17 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuckpint wrote:
New version is up. On the end of the first page, it says "Version 2.0". If the version you download, doesn't say that, you got the wrong version.


Downloaded today!
It says version 2.1f

I guess that's a newer version than 2.0??
Forgot to update this thread?

Regards, Dieter
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SFR's German electro-punk-bluegrass artist Deeghter @@ My S&JW Memorial Space! Tanx, Steve!
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