SFR, Inc.

[chuckpint]

There is a calcification needed for white dragon's multiple breaths. A breath from any dragon is a SAI. While it would seem that a red breath and a gold breath are different SAIs, in fact they are not. All dragon breaths are the same SAI so the rules about combining SAIs apply. See the SAI subsection on Targeting for the full information.

For example, say a white dragon gets a breath at a Swampland that has a Deadlands cast on it. The dragon would produce a green, gold, and black breath. So at the same time 10 health would die and 5 health would save or die. As always, per the rules on damage, you have to take as much health as possible without going over. Then any units that were killed by the green breath would have to make a second save or be buried. Lastly, the army would have it's maneuvers halved (gold breath effect), it's missile halved (green breath effect), and none of the ID count (black breath effect).

So simply first kill the units, then apply any burial when it applies, and then all the secondary effects would apply to the army.
_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Dice sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Dice, 20,000 Daemon Dice, and others (too many to count).

[ddicerc]

[piMaster]

[chuckpint]

If the player cannot split into groups of five, then as much as possible would have to be done. Burial is only a problem with Red and Green. For Black and Gold simply kill 5 health. For Blue and Green, the first save against being killed, and only the Green saves again or buried. Point is, that at each step, as much health as possible must be effected. You cannot split it up so that you take 5 heath from Black, 5 health from Gold, and only 4 health from Red. In that case, you take 15 health (or as much as possible), and then select 5 health (or again as much as possible) against burial.

Taking your example, if an army that has 3 monsters and 2 uncommons for the total army is hit by a Green and Gold breath, then you have to take 2 monsters or 1 monster and 2 uncommons for the damage. Why? Green has to be separate since there is a save against being killed in the first place. So at most you can take 4 points for the Gold, and 4 points for the Green. I know it sounds like I'm contradicting myself, but Blue and Green breath has individual units saving, not army damage. For Black, Gold, and Red, the army takes 5 damage from each.
_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Dice sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Dice, 20,000 Daemon Dice, and others (too many to count).

[cliffwiggs]

[jmonnett]

Let me take a whack at this (although it'll probably be wrong):
I'm not hip to the current DD lingo, so substitute "breath effect" for "breath" below if it will make things happy. (I'm even rusty re: what breath does these days, so please forgive any misunderstandings.)

I'll preface this by saying you are almost right. There are two steps: 1) pick who's going to die, split into who gets to save and who doesn't; 2) pick who's going to get buried

So in your example:
First: Man, are you boned.
Second: The 12 health army is getting blasted with 30 points of breath, so everyone's going to die.
Third: 20 points of this breath bring instant death. (Red, Gold, Black, Ivory) The other 10 allow save vs. death. All of this damage, however, is being done at once.
Fourth: It would make sense to have both monsters and an uncommon to be killed by the blue & green breath, allowing them to save. Your example dictates that they save, so they're all fine.
Fourth, a: The other uncommon just dies.
Fifth: Now you have to decide which color actually killed that last uncommon. Save accordingly. (If he blows it, then you can roll again for undead burial resistance)
Fifth, a: Let's assume that the other guys blew their save vs. the blue and green breath. Now you have to choose 5 health that were done in by the green breath and thus must save vs. burial. Since it's 2 monsters and an uncommon, you need only pick one monster to save vs. burial.

I hope this is both correct and helpful.

-John

[cliffwiggs]

[chuckpint]

I've split this off, when this is clear, I'll make a new sticky.

OK, I see where you are going. And you may be right. We have 4 breaths that kill 5 health with "no saves possible". We have 2 breaths that "save individually". We have 2 breaths that cause burial.

Combining the lingering effects does not seem to cause any problems. None of them would effect the breaths anyway.

So the problem comes down to taking damage from the breaths, and possible burial after they go into the DUA. What order and what is combined? Let's take three examples with just a gold and a green breath:

First example is if we take the green breath first, and some (but not all) save. Can you take some of the ones that saved and use them for the gold breath?

Second example is if we take the gold breath first, 5 health die. Now say that you don't have left any combination that lets you take 5 health. So only 4 health has to save vs death, and then possibly again vs burial.

Third example is if we take them all together. Lets say that you have an army of all uncommons. So if we say it's 10 points of damage, and you can save for 5 of it, then it's easy. But it's an individual save, how do you split one unit in half? Can you say that it has one point of unsavable damage, and one point of savable damage? I think you can. So if it rolls any save whatsoever, it's not dead. But what then if it doesn't save. Can it get buried with only 1 point? I'd save it automatically saves because it can't get buried by 1 point, only if hit with 2 points.

I think the third example is closest to the intent of the rules. We want the player to take as much damage as possible at each step. Step one is see how many died. So first pick out as close to possible the number of health of damage that all the breaths combined dealt out. Kill all the health you can vs the unsavable damage. Then in the case of Blue or Green breath, the subset of those left get a save vs death. All that died go into the DUA. For Green, those same dice you picked in the previous step, and roll them again vs burial. For Red, pick 5 health that did not have to roll against Blue or Green, and roll them to save vs burial.

The key thing here is that Red, Black, Gold and Ivory do unsavable damage. So those go first. If there are any left, then apply Blue or Green (savable) damage. For the case of burial, you have to remember which units had Green applied and they have to save again (assuming they didn't save vs death). Red is simply any five health that was not part of the Blue or Green group.

Does that make more sense?
_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Dice sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Dice, 20,000 Daemon Dice, and others (too many to count).

[cliffwiggs]

[piMaster]

I agree with Cliff on this; #1 is the least complicated and most logical answer. After spending all these years simplifying & steamlining the rules and gameplay, do we really want to take a step backwards?

[DEEPBLUEB2]

[chuckpint]

Actually, first, it seems no one has any problem with two or more of the same color breath combining. Note that multiple Blue or Black breaths have no effect beyond the 5 health of dice effected. For Gold and Green, one breath will half, 2 will quarter, 3 will take it to 1/8, etc. That's the "cumulative" part.

OK, then let's look at this. Let's start from the beginning. If we assume that each color is a different SAI, what happens?

First of all, who decides on the order in which they are applied? Currently no one has to remember who summoned the dragon, and I think we should keep it that way. The dragon owner gets to roll the dragon, but should they decide the order? Well quite often when there are multiple dragons at a terrain, they are owned by different people. Since there are multiple owners, that won't work. Since the marching player gets to decide the order of the dragon attacks if they have multiple armies with dragons on them, it makes sense that the marching player also gets to decide on the order of the breaths when multiple different breaths occur.

Second, if the breaths are sequential, not combined, it does let an army off the hook if they cannot pick exact multiples of 5 health. Best case is an army of all rares. At each step, only 3 health could be affected. So in the case Cliff posted above, what is the best way to take the breaths? Say you take the 2 uncommons against Green first, they save. Now you can take those same 2 uncommons against the Blue, they save. Then you decide to take the two uncommons against the Ivory, they are dead. Then you take the Black, and the Dracolich is dead, but you get the Spectre back (Undead stepped damage). Then you take the Gold, the Minor Death is dead, but you get the Heucava back. Then you decide to take the Red, the 2 uncommons are dead, but get to save vs burial. Assume they save (they get two chances after all). Everything is still dead, but just. If there was not an Ivory breath, you would still have the two uncommons at the end (if you were lucky).

Maybe this is not a bad thing, after all it makes commons even less desirable....
_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Dice sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Dice, 20,000 Daemon Dice, and others (too many to count).

[MissTiffany]

[MissTiffany]

[chuckpint]

Hasn't been anything posted on this in a while. So I'm going to assume we have decided the following:

1. Breaths of the same color are combined, and as much damage as possible from the combination must be taken.
   
2. Breaths of the same color that halve some result are cumulative, so 2 are a quarter, 3 are an eighth, etc.
   
3. Each color of breath is separate SAI. The acting player decides the order the breaths are applied. As much damage as possible must be taken with each breath, but the damage is not combined from one breath to the next.
   
4. The effects of multiple different breaths are cumulative.
   

_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Dice sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Dice, 20,000 Daemon Dice, and others (too many to count).

[cliffwiggs]

[chuckpint]

OK, I'll quote the section of the rules that make #3 clear. First is the section on SAI targeting:

[piMaster]

[cliffwiggs]

works for me!

Consider this rule discussion finalized from my point of view.

[Deeghter]