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TheLazyhase
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Joined: 16 Jan 2013
Posts: 208
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 Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:06 am GMT Post subject: Surprise on counter attack |
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Hello.
I think I already know the response, but it don't hurt to check.
Surprise work "during melee action". However, when I do a counter attack, I am still during the melee action (as indiqued, for example, by the example on the turn layout : "Example: Suppose during the counter-attack above, instead of the acting army rolling 2 melee hits, it rolls none. The defending army would not roll for saves and the action would end.").
Someone asked me whether it mean that the counter attack is cancelled by its own Surprise result, or if the next counter attack of the opposing army was cancelled. Of course, I said it did not do anything, but couldn't argumente with more than "it's not the intent".
The "On melee action" is not defined on the SAI general information section, which lead me to think it's an overview. I suppose the intent is for the SAI to not work on counter attack, and the wording could be clarified to use the same wording as charge ("Surprise has no effect during the counter attack phase"), since both are not supposed to work on counter attack. |
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piMaster
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Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3235
Location: Rockford, IL
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:53 am GMT Post subject: |
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Surprise only functions during the attack phase of a melee action. During the counter-attack phase it wouldn't do anything because there are no other melee attacks during that march.
Surprise states it works during a melee action. The army that is making the counter-attack is not taking a melee action, so surprise does not work for it. |
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TheLazyhase
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Joined: 16 Jan 2013
Posts: 208
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:21 am GMT Post subject: |
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| piMaster wrote: | | Surprise only functions during the attack phase of a melee action. During the counter-attack phase it wouldn't do anything because there are no other melee attacks during that march. |
It's a late SAI. Nothing force it to work only during that march ; in fact, Frost Breath work until your next turn (as stated in the SAI). I see no reason to believe that it would not work until your next melee action, except common sense.
| piMaster wrote: | | Surprise states it works during a melee action. The army that is making the counter-attack is not taking a melee action, so surprise does not work for it. |
It work during a melee action, not your melee action. The roll is done during a melee action, since the counter attack is part of the the melee action.
A clarification/ruling/errata would be pretty useful. I know I have been spoiled by old CCG where rules are a lot more precise and ruling weed out that kind of fringe case, but I love to not have to rely on common sense.
As a side note, Stomp use the same "in a melee action" wording. Your interpretation mean that the Stomp does not work during the counter-attack, which feel strange, and is at odds with the fact that the other SAI added with the Behemoth, the Charge, specifically use another wording for the same restriction. At the very least, harmonizing thoses wording would be pretty useful.
(side note to the side note : I am knee-deep in the SAIs for the simulator. I could propose a rewriting of the entire section ; I just fear it look very arrogant and smug to do so) |
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chuckpint
White Dragon
SFR President
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Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 9187
Location: Evanston, IL
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:26 am GMT Post subject: |
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Why do people only read part of the description? Here's the entire text from Surprise: | Quote: | Surprise: Late Special (melee action)
During a melee action, the defending army cannot make its counter-attack roll; however, it may make its save roll. |
So after the name, it tells you when it applies: Late | Quote: | | Late: This means the application of the SAIs effect must wait until the target rolls and finalizes their results. |
Then it tells you during what: Melee action | Quote: |
Melee Action: This action consists of the acting army rolling for melee results. A melee action has two phases: an attack phase, conducted by the marching army, and a counter-attack phase: conducted by the opposing army chosen as the recipient of the melee attack by the marching army. See attack phase, counter-attack phase and melee attack. |
Then there is the text of the SAI. It repeats that it works during a melee action. It goes on to talk about a defending army | Quote: | | Defending Army: This is a relative term that refers to the army that is currently attempting to avoid damage or some other effect inflicted upon it by an attacking army. In a missile or melee action, there is generally a single defending army (although Cantrip-generated spells can alter this). However, there is no notion of a defending army during a magic action, since any number of spells can be cast, each of which can potentially target a different army. |
Finally it talks about denying the defending army a counter-attack: | Quote: | | Counter-Attack Phase: The subsequent response by a defending army to a melee attack by the marching army during a melee action. See melee attack. |
So the final results is that it can only apply to a marching army: | Quote: | | Marching Army: The army that initiated the current march. Note well that this will not necessarily be the same as the maneuvering army or the acting army. |
because the defending army does the counter-attack. Furthermore, SAIs only have an effect past the current roll if the SAI says it does in the description. In other words, this SAI like most SAIs does not have a duration longer than the current roll.
_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Dice sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Dice, 20,000 Daemon Dice, and others (too many to count). |
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TheLazyhase
common
Joined: 16 Jan 2013
Posts: 208
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:00 pm GMT Post subject: |
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| chuckpint wrote: | | Why do people only read part of the description? Here's the entire text from Surprise: |
I have read the section several time. You forgot that several thing are open to interpretation. I insist : melee action are not defined in the SAI part. The glossary ?
| Quote: |
Melee Action: This action consists of the acting army rolling for melee results. A melee action has two phases: an attack phase, conducted by the marching army, and a counter-attack phase: conducted by the opposing army chosen as the recipient of the melee attack by the marching army. See attack phase, counter-attack phase and melee attack.
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It only say that counter-attack is part of a melee attack. You need common sense to understand it is supposed to mean only the initial attack roll. Which is bad, I really don't like to say people "it's intuitive"
Since it's a late activation, we wait until the roll. Nothing in the SAI section, I insist, say that there is a timeframe limit. So, if someone read the rule literally, he will wait the defending army next time is attacked and say it negate the counter.
| chuckpint wrote: | | Furthermore, SAIs only have an effect past the current roll if the SAI says it does in the description. |
It say so : it's a Late SAI, by definition it will wait for another roll to trigger. text could limit the span of this, but there is none.
| chuckpint wrote: | | So the final results is that it can only apply to a marching army: |
It does not say that (well, it's what it is supposed to mean, I understand, but the point is that the wording does not mean that). It say :
| Quote: |
the defending army cannot make its counter-attack roll
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And a defending army can be the marching army :
| Quote: |
Defending Army: This is a relative term that refers to the army that is currently attempting to avoid damage or some other effect inflicted upon it by an attacking army.
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So, there is a defending army, which the other one. It make it skip its counter-attack roll, which supposedly he don't have this march. But since no time limit and the opposing army may very well be attacked in melee later ...
Chuckpint, this question does not come because I don't read the rule. it's because I have read it, and there is ambiguity and common sense in the Surprise wording ; so I want to be real sure of the intent, and I want to point out that it could easily be a lot clearer, by example by defining "Melee action" in the trigger for SAI, and adding a timeframe limit for SAI when none is precised. |
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chuckpint
White Dragon
SFR President
Site Admin
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 9187
Location: Evanston, IL
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:26 pm GMT Post subject: |
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When I only see small parts of the rule quoted, I have to assume that you only are reading the parts you quoted. I've had far too many people read part of a rule, get hung up on that part, and if they had read the entire rule, then it would make sense.
So since the rules don't say on each SAI that it only applies to the current roll, the assumption is that it lasts forever? The rules would be 1,000 pages long if we had to list everything that doesn't happen. Only SAIs with a duration longer than the current roll say anything about lasting longer than the current roll.
Counter attack is clearly defined: | Quote: | | Counter-Attack Phase: The subsequent response by a defending army to a melee attack by the marching army during a melee action. See melee attack. |
Since there is only one counter-attack during a melee action, and Surprise stops the counter-attack from happening, how could it possibly apply to the counter-attack roll?
_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Dice sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Dice, 20,000 Daemon Dice, and others (too many to count). |
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TheLazyhase
common
Joined: 16 Jan 2013
Posts: 208
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:18 pm GMT Post subject: |
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| chuckpint wrote: | | Only SAIs with a duration longer than the current roll say anything about lasting longer than the current roll. |
I think there is a small misundestanding here, and maybe it's "roll" who pose problem. You are talking like if the entire attack action were a single roll, while people roll dice up to four time in it.
I am under the belief that the melee action is composed of up to 4 rolls, and consequently Surprise have to last for longer than the current roll.
If it's the case, I would propose to try to find another word than "Roll" for this use of roll, because it's pretty confusing to have rolls within a roll.
In every case, I was unable to find a mention in the rulebook that SAI work only on the current action unless specified. It may be worth the addition.
To try to make up for the numerous rules question, do you want that I start to compile a FAQ for SAI with every little bit of information which is within the rulebook but that people can easily overlook or misunderstand ? I begin to have a significant stock of thoses, and maybe it could be a useful sticky. |
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cliffwiggs
SFR Treasurer
Chief Wheedler
SDA - Rules NitPicker
Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 10794
Location: Cumming, GA - USA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:11 pm GMT Post subject: |
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| TheLazyhase wrote: |
I think there is a small misundestanding here, and maybe it's "roll" who pose problem. You are talking like if the entire attack action were a single roll, while people roll dice up to four time in it.
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There is a misunderstanding, but I don't see that its on Chuck's side.
Where did chuck imply that one Roll was made up of several rolls? I know that there is possibly a language and translation barrier here, but I don't see that he ever said that.
| Quote: |
I know I have been spoiled by old CCG where rules are a lot more precise and ruling weed out that kind of fringe case, but I love to not have to rely on common sense.
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I have to say that this is actually one of the main reaons the rules look the way they do. The 'old' version of the rules (6 yeras ago) was very intuitive. It was the very attempt to make the overs overly precise that has caused much of the issues people are having today.
Its because people are reading a precise term, but applying an intuitive meaning to it. This is why Chuck commented on only reading part of the rules. Its because the rules are so over precise that you can't understand any SAI without looking up a series of terms four deep.
If anything, I think the opposite effect needs to be done. The sai's need to be made more intuitive and try to do less precision.
Like you, I am a software developer, so I understand the need and desire to define a system with well defined rules, etc etc. A very nice man with the initials LS just recently showed me that while that approach to rules might work for me and a certain portion of the gamer population, it will drive away the majority of casual gamers.
So if anything, when the SAI section it rewritten, it will be without the need of a glossary or pages and pages trying to define every term possible.
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AC
common
Joined: 26 Feb 2012
Posts: 317
Location: DC GMA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:03 pm GMT Post subject: |
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This is in part to what I was alluding in a prior comment about age. As an unnecessary caveat, the science is of course not absolutely concrete, but in any case this entered the pop news cycle a while back, so you have probably come across a simplified version that explains/suggests the late maturation of the "prefrontal cortex" (not necessarily a universally accepted term; it's a portion of the frontal lobe of the cerebral cortex) relative to some of the rest of the brain, and said section's role in higher functioning in humans. The short version is that your teenager seems like an idiot because his/her capacity to perceive long term consequence and to employ sound logic is not reliable. One truly does become wiser with age (though I'm sure we all know plenty of full-grown adults who are fools). Thus while we would be glad to have a simple ruleset where obscurity could be resolved by "common sense," we must be aware that such sense is not always so common in younger players.
We are of course abetted by experience. For me, Surprise is straightforward. The acting army attacks, but the defending army can only defend themselves -- no counterattack, the end. I can step back and consider a) typical implementation of such a concept in game rules, because I have encountered them many times (people or groups who are ambushed or otherwise caught offguard may undertake semi- or unconscious defensive actions, but must regroup before executing a more cognitively complex task); and b) "What is the intent here? To create the possibility and option that an army may attack in melee without fear of a response. It creates one more 'thing that can happen or be done' without creating a lot of mess." I have some experience in game design, so I am familiar with the notion of complicating the canvas without overburdening the palette.
However, the major reason we have a big, long rulebook is not an accident of evolution but rather the persistence of very intentional behavior: that of the rules lawyers. You may have a different term in your circle, but you know the creature: These are people who argue and nitpick and grasp at any loophole they can find that they believe will give them an advantage in gameplay. The rules lawyers will adopt any position, no matter how ludicrous, if it can be used to rationalize turning things to their favor. They are, in other words, cheaters, who feign a misunderstanding of the spirit of the law so that they can perform contortions around the letter. While pathetically present in cooperative games (where they manifest as munchkins and their ilk, who must be the star of the party) they are perniciously prevalent in competitive gameplay -- a living headache for tournament judges and fair-minded opponents everywhere. They will argue and argue, and look upon being proven wrong not as a deterrent but as an invitation to change course, prevaricate, and b.s., because the game isn't about having fun, it's about them (and only them) winning.
I've been in the same boat, required to double- and triple-check and ultimately increase what was intended to be a brief document, in order to preemptively combat the antics of such jerks. This is why the Dragon Dice ruleset is so long, and fitted with addenda and subsections like a federal law: Even if common sense is common, someone will pretend it isn't so that he can try to game the system.
One item that definitely appealed to me with Dragon Dice was the very small rules document. Just a pamphlet, you say? A game that is simple, straightforward, and engrossing, with the nuance in the gameplay itself? Great! I have long held that what is now called the "Starter Rules" would be better renamed "Tournament Rules," and a streamlined version should be presented as the Starter Rules: Just how to setup, how to play, how to win. SAI's and spell lists can be presented in reference sheets relevant to the race you just bought. If someone is unsure, needs clarification, desires more complexity, the Tournament Rules are freely available, stuffed with examples, explanations, and notes. |
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cliffwiggs
SFR Treasurer
Chief Wheedler
SDA - Rules NitPicker
Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 10794
Location: Cumming, GA - USA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:50 pm GMT Post subject: |
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| AC wrote: | | I have long held that what is now called the "Starter Rules" would be better renamed "Tournament Rules," and a streamlined version should be presented as the Starter Rules: Just how to setup, how to play, how to win. SAI's and spell lists can be presented in reference sheets relevant to the race you just bought. If someone is unsure, needs clarification, desires more complexity, the Tournament Rules are freely available, stuffed with examples, explanations, and notes. |
A good idea, but it might drive our rules editor to distraction needing to keep multiple versions up to date.
However, lets just say that I'm doing an experiment with the rules of another game. If that experiment works, then maybe we can address the same types of techniques to dragon dice.
Then we would have the rules in a more common language and we could keep faq's in a separate place instead of trying to integrate them so tightly.
this means I'm gonna have to read that glossary thing doesn't it?
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TheLazyhase
common
Joined: 16 Jan 2013
Posts: 208
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:54 am GMT Post subject: |
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| AC wrote: |
However, the major reason we have a big, long rulebook is not an accident of evolution but rather the persistence of very intentional behavior: that of the rules lawyers. You may have a different term in your circle, but you know the creature: These are people who argue and nitpick and grasp at any loophole they can find that they believe will give them an advantage in gameplay. The rules lawyers will adopt any position, no matter how ludicrous, if it can be used to rationalize turning things to their favor. They are, in other words, cheaters, who feign a misunderstanding of the spirit of the law so that they can perform contortions around the letter. While pathetically present in cooperative games (where they manifest as munchkins and their ilk, who must be the star of the party) they are perniciously prevalent in competitive gameplay -- a living headache for tournament judges and fair-minded opponents everywhere. They will argue and argue, and look upon being proven wrong not as a deterrent but as an invitation to change course, prevaricate, and b.s., because the game isn't about having fun, it's about them (and only them) winning. |
I would add two kind of rule lawyer that doesn't try to spoil the fun : computers, who tend to take everything as written, and the "comboer" which is one who try to find neat interaction, which often try to read the fine print to get the maximum out if something.
Also, the difference between a rule lawyer and someone who is not sure about what is the intent is sometime slim. For example, I wouldn't be able to say whether the fact that stomp does not work on counter attack is rule lawyering or the original intent of the SAI. |
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piMaster
rare
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Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3235
Location: Rockford, IL
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:26 am GMT Post subject: |
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| TheLazyhase wrote: | | For example, I wouldn't be able to say whether the fact that stomp does not work on counter attack is rule lawyering or the original intent of the SAI. |
Why wouldn't stomp work during a counter-attack? Did I miss something somewhere? |
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TheLazyhase
common
Joined: 16 Jan 2013
Posts: 208
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:34 am GMT Post subject: |
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| piMaster wrote: | | TheLazyhase wrote: | | For example, I wouldn't be able to say whether the fact that stomp does not work on counter attack is rule lawyering or the original intent of the SAI. |
Why wouldn't stomp work during a counter-attack? Did I miss something somewhere? |
It work only on melee action:
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Stomp: Special (melee action); Normal (dragon attack or melee avoidance)
During a melee action, choose up to four-health worth of units in the defending army to immediately roll a maneuver result individually or be killed. Any units that are killed must then roll a save or be buried. During a dragon attack or melee avoidance roll, Stomp generates melee results.
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For comparison, the surprise text :
| Quote: |
Surprise: Late Special (melee action)
During a melee action, the defending army cannot make its counter-attack roll; however, it may make
its save roll.
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And as you said yourself :
| PiMaster wrote: |
Surprise states it works during a melee action. The army that is making the counter-attack is not taking a melee action, so surprise does not work for it.
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Surprise and Stomp are the only one who work only on melee action, by the way. All other work on melee attack, and Charge have an additional restriction that it does not work on counter-attack.
As I said : I sincerely don't know if the special wording is supposed to be significant. |
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chuckpint
White Dragon
SFR President
Site Admin
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 9187
Location: Evanston, IL
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:29 am GMT Post subject: |
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It's a mistake. The next version of the rules will be changed to make that say "melee attack".
_________________
You can never have too many dice.
First Place at the first ever Daemon Dice sealed starter tournament.
Battlefest tied for first GenCon 2012
Single Race Champion GenCon 2008-2009, Sealed Box Champion GenCon 2007,2009,
My collection is 21,500 Dragon Dice, 20,000 Daemon Dice, and others (too many to count). |
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