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ddicerc
rare
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Joined: 25 Jan 2005
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 Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:41 am GMT Post subject: Wall of Thorns |
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The wording of Wall of Thorns is, "Target any terrain not already under the effects of a Wall of Thorns spell or currently at the 8th face. Until the end of your next turn, any army making a maneuver attempt that results in changing the terrain face causes damage to itself equal to the total health-worth of units in the army. Roll the army; each melee result reduces the damage by one point. Multiple castings target multiple terrains."
Since the damage is only caused if the result is a face change at the terrain, would an army making an attempt that resulted in capturing its second 8th face win before taking damage? The wording of the spell as is indicates that the damage occurs as a result of changing the face, and the rules also state that "The first player to capture two terrains immediately wins the game" (emphasis added). If the damage must be saved against, the wording should be changed so that the change of face does not occur until after the damage is taken, but I think this might open up a whole new can of worms.
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chuckpint
White Dragon
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Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 9187
Location: Evanston, IL
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:58 am GMT Post subject: |
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Your analysis is correct. The behavior of the spell and winning the game has been talked about before. We decided that this was fine. The only way this would make a difference is if the army generated zero melee results. With a full army there, that's not likely. If you have Pathed a single unit there, then it could make a large difference.
Here's some discussion on WoT from the rules history. Note this is a small part of it, the full discussion went nearly 6 pages!
| rules history wrote: |
7/25/02 (questions from Listserv): Given this, if you turn a terrain to the 8th face, wouldn’t you win the game instantly – before rolling for damage? If you have to roll for damage, even if you just captured your second 8th face, shouldn’t that be clarified? Timing is everything here…
(RobT): Since the rules state: The first player to capture two terrains immediately wins the game.", the word "immediately" means in this situation the player has won the game and does not have to survive the WoT effect. Nothing further needs to be clarified in the WoT description, but all of the relevant rules need to be understood.
7/25/02 (RobT): Here's an interesting situation. A terrain under a WoT at a 7th face is maneuvered to an 8th. This makes the second 8th face captured for the player.
(a) Is the game over since the player has just captured a second 8th face, thus they do not have to go through the WoT effect?
(b) The player has to survive the WoT effect first, then is declared the winner?
I'm leaning towards (b) because the player must "play-out" the effects of the spell if there is a possibility they would not survive, thus not capture their second 8th face (good tactic for against those players with a few units left on a 7th face and justification for the high spell cost). This is along the same line as this far-out example:
An Undead army, located on a 7th face, makes a melee attack against an army inflicting damage and rolling 3 Cantrips. Decides to cast a Night Moves spell and successfully maneuvers the terrain to an 8th, capturing their
second terrain. Would the opposing army still get to roll a save and conduct a counter-attack (because the opposing player has a possibility to destroy (albeit remote) the acting player's army and move the terrain back to a 7 - preventing the win) or is the game over? If we say the game is over, then (a) in the WoT situation is the consistent answer.
If (b) is the approach, then we would need a rule stating: "Before a player can win the game by capturing two terrains, all effects and actions must be completed if such events could potentially prevent the army from controlling the second captured terrain." Thoughts?
7/25/02 (Cliff): I've actually thought of this...
> (RobT) (a) Is the game over since the player has just captured a second 8th face, thus they do not have to go through the WoT effect? >
Currently, Yes Same thing on your undead example, currently yet. Another example... After a bloody battle, you have one unit left (lava elf heavy melee rare) and I have one unit left (dragon slayer). You attack me in melee and generate 5 melee. I roll for saves and get a 'sneak attack'. Currently, we would say that I won. Your unit is killed by my SAI moments before your normal melee kills mine (because I rolled no saves). If you are going to change it now, then this would change to a tie. Another way of looking at it is: Do we check for victory consistently or only at the end of each march? I don't see a reason to change it.
7/25/02 (Chuck): Pat and I discussed this very situation as well. Under the current rules, the word "immediately" is used for winning the game via capturing the second terrain. I'd keep it simple and leave it that way. So your example (a) of WoT would apply. Of course, if (b) were true then a Path to Victory may be a bit harder to pull off if you have to 1) out-maneuver, and 2) survive the WoT. But I still lean toward simpler...
7/25/02 (Will): It would be a) The instant you get a second face you win and the game is over.
5/1/03 (Will): However, I can see why there might be a question about this so what if we changed it to read: “Target any terrain not already under the effects of a Wall of Thorns spell or currently at the 8th face. Until the end of your next turn, any army that maneuvers the terrain (even unopposed) and changes the terrain face causes damage to itself equal to the total health-worth of units in the army. Roll the army; each melee result reduces the damage by one point. Multiple castings target multiple terrains.”
5/1/03 (RobT): Crisper wording (to be consistent with Mire): “Target any terrain not already under the effects of a Wall of Thorns spell or currently at the 8th face. Until the end of your next turn, any army making a maneuver attempt that results in changing the terrain face causes damage to itself equal to the total health-worth of units in the army. Roll the army; each melee result reduces the damage by one point. Multiple castings target multiple terrains.” [Note: This revision included in the Advanced Rules, v1.4.]
5/2/03 (Will): Sounds good to me...
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