SFR, Inc.

Skawilly

I dont care what people say these things, they are hidden gems. Beholders, Satyrs, Genies, Owls and to some effect Griffons and Dracoliches.

If your playing a single race they are clearly not the number choice, mostly anyway. But if you take any single race and just throw one of these monsters that share synergy its one of the best effects ever. Say your playing Coral elves. Give them a Satyr or Owl Folk and believe me you wont regret it. I put together a Lava Elf army and plugged in just one Genie and let me tell you it was the coolest thing. I did that same thing with dwarves and I will likely be doing this regularly. I can see scalders benefiting greatly from just one Griffon. Now undead are usually not great mixed. Though, if you put a Dracolich in with your Undead mages, this thing never fails to perform. It carrys moves/saves and magic. Yes it does not cast quite as well as a Lich but on the other hand it really does a great deal including maximizing stepped damage.

Ill say that this kinda tactic will hinder your strength a bit in each 18 point army. However it does soooo much more. Sometimes 4 points of magic is just not that big of a deal when the SAI's these things produce are far more effective when the timing is right. And through out the game it will be right at least once or twice.
_________________
Will
"There is more philosophy in a bottle of wine than all the books in all the world" - Some random wine cap -

DialFforFunky · rare Joined: 11 May 2010 Posts: 1992 Location: Groningen

I can't say that I had great experiences with the Beholder or the Dracolich, but I did like the Will-o-Wisp (even though they didn't preform that good). Owls are probably quite good, but I don't want to play feral.
That these monsters can still be quite powerful probably comes from the fact that they usually carry very strong SAIs to counter-balance their inconsistency (this is also one of the main reasons why the Ettercap never sees action - a horrible lack in powerful SAIs). If you can make these dice roll more reliably (flash fire, vortex) they have the potential to leave quite a mark on the game. But consistency always remains an issue.
Apart from the consistency-issues, one of the biggest restraints to some of these dice is that they count for magic health. This is especially true for the genie, which I'd love to try, but find very hard to incorporate into an army.

Finally: gryphon unfocused? I'm very curious why you'd think that, as I'm inclined to think it has a killer-focus... Very Happy

F
_________________
717

DEEPBLUEB2 · Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:25 am GMT Post subject:

Skawilly · Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:33 am GMT Post subject:

eggsaladsandwich · Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:04 am GMT Post subject:

My armies always include at least 2 monsters, they are what keep the game fun in my oppinion...of course , I don't play very competatively. Its all about the random kick but roll for me, even if I lose the game...which happens often Razz

.
_________________
"Another days useless energy spent." Moody Blues

Skawilly · Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:39 pm GMT Post subject:

I am starting to feel the Satyr, too, is such a great die. If I were playing scalders, I would add this guy in every time. He does not add any terrain hopping per-se but he adds path and that can but just as advantageous at times.
I might try him with the coral elves too, if I choose a mage/ranged build. Just a huge array of usefulness. Would work GREAT with swamp stalkers too, and if he landed a face ID on a swamp, he could call water onto your enemies for all kinds of dastardly swamp stalker deeds.
_________________
Will
"There is more philosophy in a bottle of wine than all the books in all the world" - Some random wine cap -

stormywaters · rare Joined: 22 May 2011 Posts: 1403

Skawilly · Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:28 pm GMT Post subject:

I think thats the issue most folk come up with. Yes I could bring something more reliable with magic, or something more reliable with missle. But then I am losing the other effect entirely. The Satyr offers both and decent saves.

I am not at all arguing that if I am bringing this unit for path, or just for a hopes for a magic face ID double, well, just magic all around its not the clear choice.

My feeling is that one die with serious versatility is very powerful. Focus 95% of your army, its very much the way it should be. But in any army a sprinkle of random versatility is far more powerful than 20% more magic (on one die, not the entire army).
I would NOT bring the Satyr for ranged. I would NOT bring the Satyr for magic. I would NOT bring the Satyr for sleep. WAY better choices. I would bring him because he is capable of randomness at any given time. Along with confuse with decent melee, you never know.

I think your under estimating that power. To bring a ton of randomness is very foolish also, very foolish actually. I have been very happy with the success these individuals offer.

One could argue that a bronze medallion is really powerful because its 25% of everything, 33% if your attacking in a skirmish. When that cantrip comes up though, it adds so much that can happen. I am finding that adding a monster like the Satyr or genie has as much power though, in an equally amount, but different situations.
_________________
Will
"There is more philosophy in a bottle of wine than all the books in all the world" - Some random wine cap -

Skawilly · Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:47 pm GMT Post subject:

Please, dont misunderstand me. Its the SAI's that make this work. The monsters need various SAI's also. I dont think I would trust, say, an Ormyr, in this fashion. On that note, also, I am not saying random trash is good either. That 3 sword face on the Necromancer is trash through and through. I suppose one could argue its not a bad thing if you are going through necromantic wave, but generally in the vast most cases its trash and it would have been better as a maneuver or save.
_________________
Will
"There is more philosophy in a bottle of wine than all the books in all the world" - Some random wine cap -

stormywaters · rare Joined: 22 May 2011 Posts: 1403

Skawilly · Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:10 pm GMT Post subject:

I will take you up on that challenge on my next meet up.

Now, I want to agree with you and say they fail more than they help. However, and your really pin pointing me to say the exact reason and I appreciate it so other readers understand where I am coming from, its not how often they fail, but its when they do come through its a HUGE success.

4 saves/4 moves/4 magic/4 missile at any given one time is not a big deal. Yes it can be, and we can hit up corner cases and say its a big deal on an 8th or with burning hands or whatever. But when volley DOES come through, now on your turn you get to bury. When sleep does come through its a free lightning strike. Those topped with adding gold magic that when it does happen, its a pretty sweet path to victory, or a camo when you just need it. All of these possibilities from one die.
_________________
Will
"There is more philosophy in a bottle of wine than all the books in all the world" - Some random wine cap -

stormywaters · rare Joined: 22 May 2011 Posts: 1403

And I respectfully disagree. One Volley, that happens 1 in 5 times, is not worth the inclusion. Sleep, as it currently stands, certainly isn't either.

Even the sum of those individual options isn't worth the price of the Satyr. If it worked more reliably, maybe. But now, no.

eggsaladsandwich · Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:42 pm GMT Post subject:

Stormy and Skawilly, you guys really bust me up, I enjoy reading your posts almost more than playing either one of you. In this discussion it just boils down to 1 thing...Monsters (almost any of them) can be powerful but more importantly are extremely fun to play around with. IMHO any player that does not field at least one is either a "Timmy" or is seriously missing out on a lot of the fun of this game... Razz

_________________
"Another days useless energy spent." Moody Blues

stormywaters · rare Joined: 22 May 2011 Posts: 1403

Oh Egg, you're quite the character yourself! Razz

I run monsters, but only when they are worth running. I am fond of Dispel Magic, in this magic-heavy game. Dracolich is a good monster. Sprite Swarm is good, but would be much less useful if it weren't a Group ID. Troll is good. Fireshadow is good (and Skawilly is wrong about the Genie Razz

).

So yes, I will play monsters, but only if they are worth playing.

Skawilly · Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:14 pm GMT Post subject:

To bring a monster for a single SAI or purpose is the waste I think...

Trolls are good for one purpose, and its even more shallow than ressing. They help you stay alive on your climb to 8 and help assult 8th faces, as your in no good position to cast there, and they carry smite. Beyond that they lose power greatly. They are tourney dice for this reason. They are not successful in most friendly games because they are slow and stupid*. Fire shadows just insure attrition and are easy to off. Fireshadows are the ONE monster that I would bring for SAI use and its because they are 80% everything and help prevent being the victim of a path/transmute.

I think the disappointment for me is when I bring those(focused SAI) monsters and then they fail. They will help you in no other manner. While on the topic of focused monsters or single purpose monsters, I suppose a wolf pack or a crocosaur are both decently reliable to do what they came to do. Even still, if they are not in a position where they can be at their best then they become stupid*

*Cant Cast
_________________
Will
"There is more philosophy in a bottle of wine than all the books in all the world" - Some random wine cap -

stormywaters · rare Joined: 22 May 2011 Posts: 1403

To me, the waste is to bring a monster that you can't reasonably count on to do what it needs to do. Satyr can't do what you want when you want it anywhere near reliably. He has a 30% chance of doing just about anything, which means nothing well. That's not a good strategy. Yes, those few (and I mean few) times that it works it can be really cool, but it's rare enough to not be worth the cost.

So no, a Satyr isn't good. It's ideally really good. In practice it's not. If you could count on that Volley to come up more than one in 5 times, it'd be worth playing. By the time that one Satyr rolls Volley, that army is already dead anyway. Sleep works on one action type, Confuse works during two (but only has one face), etc.

He is simply too scattered to be worth playing. If one of those SAIs was more potent (like Regenerate or Dispel Magic or Plague) it might be worth the risk. Volley? Sleep? Confuse? Not by a long shot.

Skawilly · Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:39 pm GMT Post subject:

Ok ok, I get it I get it. I dont have much more to say about it that I have not already. I suppose the bottom line thought here for me anyway is that having a really focus'd army is key. I do think there should be a smidge of versatility and, beyond just wanted to use all the dice and enjoy them (Romanticising the situation) I truly believe that the person who has the BEST (not the most) on this matter has the edge. The last couple meets ups I have been using this tactic and I am winning way more than I am losing. Its not 'entirely' skill either. These dice really pull me ahead its amazing.

The best way to throw in some versatility is that you need to have one scatter brained monster. Owls with frostwing work pretty damn good also. Gives them path/Dispel and seize all while synergizing blue.
_________________
Will
"There is more philosophy in a bottle of wine than all the books in all the world" - Some random wine cap -

stormywaters · rare Joined: 22 May 2011 Posts: 1403

DialFforFunky · rare Joined: 11 May 2010 Posts: 1992 Location: Groningen

There's only one place I could possibly see Genies being worth it - in a Fireshadow monster bunch army. And even here, there is considerable doubt. The 'magic' cost off 3 is kind of annoying. I'd try the army with 3 fireshadows, 2 genies, 2 phoenixes and 2 gold medallions. The army likes to bunch up, so the occasional firewalking helps to make use of a second march. As the army is quite versatile, the firecloud icon isn't completely wasted either.

F
_________________
717